27-04-2002 05:34									#91
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If you call them soldiers, you are legitimizing their tactics.

How so? The word soldier in and of itself carries no noble meaning.

	27-04-2002 05:36									#92
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Doesn't it?

	27-04-2002 05:38									#93
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PH: I agree with the notion that violence begets violence, however, the Israelis were the last ones to offer up the Olive Branch, only to have it shoved down their throats (along with some more explosives at a number of civilian targets). Given this, I think it's up to the Pals to determine when THEY are ready to talk peace. If they continue their attacks, then they should expect the same. It is unreasonable to expect the Israelis to come to the table yet again with another offer at this time, given the response to their last few.

Dino: I'll not deny that a regular army, when it moves, when it fights does not kill civilians. Clearly they do. The difference is that the army (and the soldiers in it) do not routinely and exclusively cull out civilian targets to shoot at. Generally, they shoot at the guys who are shooting back. This is not the case with terrorists.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:40									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx again....just pointing out that it's a behavior learned quite clearly from our forefathers in Europe. You mentioned Native Americans, and yes, they were treated badly by the United States....but were they treated any worse by us than say....Spain? (the nation that toppled ancient American Empires and depopulated entire regions). -=Vel=-

Vel, You have always impressed me as being a relatively educated fellow. I am surprised by the above statement. Have you ever read de Tocquiville's Democracy in America?

Ned

	27-04-2002 05:40									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison The likes of George Washington et al at one point were regarded as terrorists.

They would agree with you.

"Nothing has been more destructive to the true interest of this Country, than the mode adopted for its defense." - Nathanael Greene 1781

quote: It comes down to definition.

and your continued efforts not to apply them.

	27-04-2002 05:41									#96
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I agree with NYE here. To call the terrorist a soldier is to legitimize his tactics. This then, can be used as justification to enlist our own terrorists to go into the refugee camps and blow them to smithereens, yes? They're just soldiers, after all, so why not?

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:43									#97
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Can I ask a question concerning Le Pen? Is he anti-Israeli? All the anti-Semitism we now see in the U.S., except for some lunatic white supremecists groups, is coming from the left.

Ned

	27-04-2002 05:44									#98
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Ned: Thank ya! And while I have not read the particular book in question, I know that some heinous attrocities were committed by the Americans AFTER we won our independence, not limited to forced resettlement, mass murder, and even biological war. Absolutely horrible stuff, and totally unforgivable.

I was simply pointing out that we hardly invented that game, and in terms of raw numbers (the plains indians, even taken as a whole, were never nearly so numerous as the tribes in the Mexican peninsula), the Spanish could give us a few lessons.

Should it be all about the numbers? Absolutely not. Heinous crimes are heinous crimes. However, for Euros to paint us and our actions as being any worse than their own is to deny history itself.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:47									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I agree with NYE here. To call the terrorist a soldier is to legitimize his tactics.

How so? I still haven't seen an arguement in that regard.

quote: This then, can be used as justification to enlist our own terrorists to go into the refugee camps and blow them to smithereens, yes?

No, it couldn't be. As i said earlier, warfare against a civilian population is a counterproductive tactic and will hurt your long term interests.

History is full of such examples. I could even give you a short list if you want.

	27-04-2002 05:48									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx However, for Euros to paint us and our actions as being any worse than their own is to deny history itself.

In all places, some people are very good at that.

	27-04-2002 05:51									#101
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc As i said earlier, warfare against a civilian population is a counterproductive tactic and will hurt your long term interests.

It seems to be doing the Palestinians a lot of good. Most (?) Europeans are turning against Israel due to the measures the IDF has been forced to take to protect Israel. Many Americans are beginning to go down that same Euro road.

	27-04-2002 05:51									#102
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Dino: Absolutely correct. It DOES hurt your long term interests to actively make use of terrorist "soldiers." This is being borne out as we type in the Middle East. The Israelis DID offer terms of peace. The Pal response was to send in the terrorists.

Israel countered.

Blood flowed.

If we count the terrorists as soldiers, as you say, then this latest round of violence was initiated by the Pals and their "army". Thus, it should be up to them to say when it's time to sue for peace. Until then, they are reaping what they have sown.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:53									#103
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Neo-nazis are liberal?

That's what is so confounding. The Democratic Party in the U.S. has been the home of the Jews and the greatest supporter of Israel. And yet, virtually all the radical anti-Semitic hatred, and there is a lot of it, that I see here is coming exclusively from liberals.

That is why I am asking about Le Pen. He has been characterized as being from the far right. Is he pro- or anti-Israel?

Ned

	27-04-2002 06:00									#104
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The thing is, with state-sponsored terrorism, these terrorists are being used as a tool for foreign policy by some nations (Pals, Iran, Iraq, Syria), and thus are soldiers in the international sence. And I have no problem with this. Let them be called soldiers. Therefore, the suicide bombers attacks are an act of war by the sponsering states on the nation of Israel, and as thus warrent military action.

In the future, I see terrorists being a more and more used tool by some countries. But, what the countries that use them don't get, is that although they decided to askew conventional military warfare for this new tactic, other (more powerful) countries still fight with tanks, planes, and troops.

	27-04-2002 06:00									#105
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It seems to be doing the Palestinians a lot of good.

Thier dream of a sovereign state gets pushed further out with each suicide attack, regardless of international pressure, and they are extremely unlikely to get much more than what was offered by Barak at Camp David II in any political settlement, even the Saudi Proposal is only a few percentage points off of that offer. I fail to see how thier use of terrorism has substantially advanced thier cause.

	27-04-2002 06:02									#106
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In case we forget, once upon a time Arab nation was killing Americans by capturing, killing and looting passing American ships. An American president, like Sharon, sent in the troops. The piracy stopped. That American president was none other than Thomas Jefferson, one of the greatest statesmen of all time.

Ned

	27-04-2002 06:07									#107
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re Terror as a means of war and terrorists as soldiers.

My concern is for the level of acceptance terrorism has attained. It should not be tolerated at all, ever, when it is a sustained attack on civilians.

Do you want a world of no terrorism? When a nation or group sponsors terror directed at civilians, then the entire world should turn on that nation or that group, hunt them down and destroy the leaders of the country and all members of the group. You would have a pretty quick end to the practice of human bombs at bus stops or flying planes into buildings.

BTW. Just what is the war against terrorism supposed to accomplish? America's foreign policy? Or a world free from terrorism?

	27-04-2002 06:37									#108
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quote: BTW. Just what is the war against terrorism supposed to accomplish? America's foreign policy? Or a world free from terrorism?

It is supposed to fund next generation of military hardware. The generation after that will be the one which will completely eliminate the need for soldiers in the field.

	27-04-2002 13:04									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Is overwhelming power going to solve the situation?

Yes, yes, yes. And you saw this happening in the last month. From 7 suicide bombings every week we're down do 2 every 3 weeks.

Operation Defensive Shield had proven that when the IDF is inside the Pal cities, actively searching for weapons and terrorists the level of terror falls drastically and it takes weeks/months for them to reorganize again.

	27-04-2002 16:06									#110
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quote: Moreover, I dont see 90,000 palestinians leaving the W.Bank every month.

This is because that's exactly what Israel wants: to expel them once and for all from their country. Once a Palestinian leaves Palestine, they do not let him return.

quote: Yes, yes, yes. And you saw this happening in the last month. From 7 suicide bombings every week we're down do 2 every 3 weeks. Operation Defensive Shield had proven that when the IDF is inside the Pal cities, actively searching for weapons and terrorists the level of terror falls drastically and it takes weeks/months for them to reorganize again.

And for how long are you planning to keep them suppressed? They will come back and strike harder eventually.

What Israel is doing is a very bad historical precedent. It proves that it is possible for a whole nation to be oppressed and it's resistance vanquished militarily; and all that would be justified if it were in a struggle against "terrorism". This is a just as bad historical precedent as the war in Jugoslavia was. I am afraid that quite a few others will attempt to mimic the ways of the USA and Israel. F.e. do not forget that Russia, to support it's opression of Chechenia utilises terrorist acts of the Chechens (bombings in Moscow and other Russian cities, hijackings e.t.c.).

	27-04-2002 17:02									#111
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Arafat has SUCEEDED in what he wanted to do at the outset of the intifada (if anyone has looked at his goals at the time, and what has happened). Arafat's goals in the very beginning was to HAVE an intifada to garner international support for the 'plight of the palestinian people' when Israel would go inside their towns and look for those who planned the attacks.

	27-04-2002 17:23									#112
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Seems that there is quite a different point of view on who proposed the peace and who refused it between Europe and USA. Americans see Iraël trying to make peace with Palestinians and being ignored.
In Europe, though, there is rather the opinion that the peace was on the good way to work, but since the assassination of Rabbin and the election of Nethanyaou (spelling ?), Israël's leaders have been oppressive, provocative and unsincere toward Palestinian, breaking promises, treaty, implanting new settlements, multiplicating humiliations. So in Europe, it's Israël which is seen as the destroyer of peace, hence a complete lack of sympathy toward it.


Ned, to answer your question : yes Le Pen is quite antisemitic. Sympathizer of his party has been involved in jews graves desecration, and he was the one that said that gaz chambers were "a detail".
Hearing that you see more antisemitism to the left is quite surprising for me, 'cause AFAIK, I only encountered racism from right-winged people. Though it was a right-only turn of mind.

	27-04-2002 18:06									#113
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I read an article the other day in swedens biggest morning paper "dagens nyheter" where a journalist reported from the french commune of Orange, the only commune run by one of Le Pens buddies. There where quite a few distrubing points to draw from that article but the one thing that's important in this case is:

One of his so called dreams as a mayor was to be able to buy anti-semitic and revisionist litterature to the town library. He also wanted to get rid of a lot of other litterature (pretty much a book-burning kind of ****er, disgusting).

	27-04-2002 18:17									#114
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My question would be: "The assassination of Rabin by whom?" IIRC, didn't his death by the hand of Yigal Amir have something to do with the Pals? And yet, this is not seen as having anything to do with derailing the process?

If you and I have a peace treaty on the table, and while we're talking it up, you send some of your boys over to kill one of mine....I'd not be overly inclined to continue to negotiate with ya...figuring that your intentions were...pretty clearly demonstrated by the act of assassination.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 18:27									#115
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Vel, are you a conspiracy theorist?

	27-04-2002 18:30									#116
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Kropotkin: Nope. I do and have confessed to enjoying reading about conspiracy theories, and I think that a few of them raise interesting and valid questions (that are generally ignored anyway), but no...I cannot say that I'm a conspiracy theorist.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 18:32									#117
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your post earlier hinted that the pals would be behind the mured of Rabin, something I've heard nothing about so it kind of seems like a conspiracy...

	27-04-2002 18:35									#118
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Ahhh...gotcha....well, admittedly, it's been a while...what...'95? '96? But IIRC Amir (the professed assassin) had ties to organizations directly linked to/sympathetic toward the Pals....not an unlikely possibilty, I wouldn't think.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 18:39									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx not an unlikely possibilty

Yep sounds a lot like the info a quite a number of people here like to throw in the face of other labeled as facts

	27-04-2002 18:43									#120
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Somewhat more seriously; Sounds a lot like the kind of stuff one hear about the Kennedy-assissination and Oswald, Like in the film JFK.

btw, The word comes from a people called the assassins, the inventors of terrorism. Those poor chaps even have a worse reputation than the Vandals...