27-04-2002 01:13									#1
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Apr25.html

quote: France can hardly contain its contempt for that muscle-bound naif, the American hyperpower, stomping around the world in search of "evildoers." The French roll their eyes at such primitive moralism, so devoid of Gallic nuance. How inconvenient, then, that the same French have just put on the presidential ballot Jean-Marie Le Pen, the modern incarnation of European fascism. Le Pen defeated the Socialist prime minister for second place, making him a runoff candidate for president of the Fifth Republic. No matter. This will not restrain French intellectuals and foreign ministers from lecturing Americans on their simplisme -- their preference for morality over realpolitik, their reliance on military power, their fantasies about an "axis of evil" and, perhaps most unbearable, their principled support for Israel. Israel -- that "sh---- little country," as the French ambassador to Britain recently said at a London dinner party. "Why should we be in danger of World War III because of those people?" This contemptuous sneer at "those people" occasioned a minor scandal. No, the scandal was not the ambassador's statement but the hostess's indiscretion in revealing it -- and then adding how utterly commonplace the ambassador's sentiment had become in London's better circles. And not just among the cocktail set. The European "street" has lately been expressing itself on the subject of Jews as well. In France, synagogues have been burned to the ground and Jewish youths savagely attacked. In Belgium, two synagogues were firebombed, a third sprayed with bullets. A Berlin police official advised Jews, for reasons of safety, not to wear outward symbols of their religion. In Europe, it is not very safe to be a Jew. How could this be? The explanation is not that difficult to find. What we are seeing is pent-up anti-Semitism, the release -- with Israel as the trigger -- of a millennium-old urge that powerfully infected and shaped European history. What is odd is not the anti-Semitism of today but its relative absence during the past half-century. That was the historical anomaly. Holocaust shame kept the demon corked for that half-century. But now the atonement is passed. The genie is out again. This time, however, it is more sophisticated. It is not a blanket hatred of Jews. Jews can be tolerated, even accepted, but they must know their place. Jews are fine so long as they are powerless, passive and picturesque. What is intolerable is Jewish assertiveness, the Jewish refusal to accept victimhood. And nothing so embodies that as the Jewish state. What so offends Europeans is the armed Jew, the Jew who refuses to sustain seven suicide bombings in the seven days of Passover and strikes back. That Jew has been demonized in the European press as never before since, well . . . since the '30s. The liberal Italian daily La Stampa ran a cartoon of the baby Jesus, besieged by Israeli tanks, saying, "Don't tell me they want to kill me again." Again. And this time the Christ-killers come in tanks. Just when Europe had reconciled itself to tolerance for the passive Jew -- the Holocaust survivor who could be pitied, lionized, perhaps awarded the occasional literary prize -- along comes the Jewish state, crude and vital and above all unwilling to apologize for its own existence. The French were the vanguard of this modern anti-Semitism that can tolerate the Jew as victim but not as historical actor. It was 35 years ago at the outbreak of the Six Day War that Charles de Gaulle cut off French support for Israel, denouncing its audacity in fighting for its life over his objections. But he did not stop there. He later went on to famously denounce the Jews as "an elite people, sure of itself and domineering." The rejection of docility -- "sure of itself" -- was Israel's real crime 35 years ago. It remains Israel's crime today. Israel's recent three-week Operation Defensive Shield, the boldest and most justified Israeli military offensive since the Six Day War, provokes precisely the same reaction, though not always expressed with de Gaulle's candor. Three people have been chosen by the United Nations to judge Israel's actions in Jenin. Two are sons of Europe, and one of those is Cornelio Sommaruga. As former head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Sommaruga spent 12 years ensuring that the only nation on earth to be refused admission to the International Red Cross is Israel. The problem, he said, was its symbol: "If we're going to have the Shield of David, why would we not have to accept the swastika?" This man will sit in judgment of the Jews. Marx was wrong when he said that history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second as farce. The second time is tragedy too.

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Well....it had to be posted.

	27-04-2002 01:22									#2
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Hmm, American journalists calling Europe right-wing...


We can't dislike an immoral country without being anit-semitic?

	27-04-2002 01:25									#3
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immoral? Define immoral? Like defending your country?

	27-04-2002 01:27									#4
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"If we're going to have the Shield of David, why would we not have to accept the swastika?"


This is the anti semitic remark I was referring to in one of the last threads on the issue.

	27-04-2002 01:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory immoral? Define immoral? Like defending your country?

That's not the point - I don't want to enter debate over if it is or isn't. (God knows theres been enough). I mean just because Europeans dislike the Israeli state does not mean Facsism is on the rise. It's like disliking Italy and people saying you hate all Catholics...

	27-04-2002 01:28									#6
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Faded Glory:

Nope. More like terrifying a neighbour culture and destroying any necessary infrastructure to keep up their wish for an own state. Plus, destroying their camps while constructing settlements on their land, killing their women and children without giving foreign inspectors or reporters a chance to prove the opposite, claiming it's all about the war on terrorism.

Doing all that because you know you're backed by the most powerful country in the world as well.

	27-04-2002 01:31									#7
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This is like the pot calling the kettle black Jon.

Set an example, Leave Ulster. Stop protecting a people who dislike catholics.

	27-04-2002 01:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Nope. More like terrifying a neighbour culture and destroying any necessary infrastructure to keep up their wish for an own state. Plus, destroying their camps while constructing settlements on their land, killing their women and children without giving foreign inspectors or reporters a chance to prove the opposite, claiming it's all about the war on terrorism.

What happened Vick? You miss those days when your ancestors were massacring us and we did nothing? Or do you fell threatened? Now that Jews can nuke the **** out of you...

	27-04-2002 01:34									#9
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory This is like the pot calling the kettle black Jon. Set an example, Leave Ulster. Stop protecting a people who dislike catholics.

Oh, God. British troops are there to keep the peace. The people of Northern Ireland VOTED TO REMAIN PART OF THE UK. They have lived there hundreds of years - LONGER THAN AMERICANS HAVE LIVED IN NORTH AMERICA. It is complete hypocrsy to tell us to leave Northern Ireland if you do not leave the continent.

	27-04-2002 01:34									#10
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How is that related to the topic, Herr Zlatkin?

	27-04-2002 01:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Doing all that because you know you're backed by the most powerful country in the world as well.

So what? Israel is our allies. We rightfully should protect them. As if they even need now. They are a sovieregn state. They have the right to settle these things on there own.


Stop railing the US. We have done more than you to get peace in the region.

	27-04-2002 01:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Oh, God. British troops are there to keep the peace. The people of Northern Ireland VOTED TO REMAIN PART OF THE UK. They have lived there hundreds of years - LONGER THAN AMERICANS HAVE LIVED IN NORTH AMERICA. It is complete hypocrsy to tell us to leave Northern Ireland if you do not leave the continent.

how? You have, in your own ways done what you claim Israel is doing.

	27-04-2002 01:38									#13
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Oh, God. British troops are there to keep the peace. The people of Northern Ireland VOTED TO REMAIN PART OF THE UK. They have lived there hundreds of years - LONGER THAN AMERICANS HAVE LIVED IN NORTH AMERICA. It is complete hypocrsy to tell us to leave Northern Ireland if you do not leave the continent.

I need a quick lesson in history. How did the Brits got there? And when?

	27-04-2002 01:39									#14
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YOU most certainly haven't done anything to settle peace there.

And then, since when have countries been allowed to do whatever they felt like just ebcause they're souvereign states? so is Yugoslavia, yet they were bombed back into the stone age, and it seems some people are proud of that.

	27-04-2002 01:40									#15
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Not only this, Irsael is acting to stop terrorist acts. And its working...isnt it?

Didnt the UK do somthing similiar when an IRA attack happens???

	27-04-2002 01:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I need a quick lesson in history. How did the Brits got there? And when?

They invaed it, in the middle ages. Nowadays, the majority of people there is Protestant, which is a decent reason for keeping it the way it is. It has been like that for hundreds of years, as has been the fact that 100% were ownded by THEM. Your advancing won't get you anywhere, it would take thousand of years and a sleeping public in order to get your claims in Palestine only halfway 'justified'...

	27-04-2002 01:42									#17
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1. There is no proof that terrifying and killing civilians has decreased 'world-wide terror' or even regional terror. That has been achieved by arresting responsibles, but that's not the matter.

2. No they haven't.

	27-04-2002 01:42									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion YOU most certainly haven't done anything to settle peace there. And then, since when have countries been allowed to do whatever they felt like just ebcause they're souvereign states? so is Yugoslavia, yet they were bombed back into the stone age, and it seems some people are proud of that.

I dont see palestinian cities being burned, thousands murdered, MiG's strafing civilian convoys. Moreover, I dont see 90,000 palestinians leaving the W.Bank every month.

	27-04-2002 01:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I need a quick lesson in history. How did the Brits got there? And when?

I'm doing it in history for a-level. Protestants emigrated there a few hundred yeas ago and Britain invaded Ireland. Ireland remains under British rule with the Act of Union in 1801. Several failed uprisings, revolutions, etc, later, Britain finally pushes the Home Rule Act in 1914, to grant the Irish and independant state. However, the people in the north are British and wish to remain art of the UK. In the end the Irish were given their own country and the Northern Irish remained in the UK. All is fair, the populace voted for this. However, the IRA think that the Northern Irish should be forced to join the Republic and decided the best way to do this is by bombing British civilians. Americans fund them, feeling the Irish are an 'oppressed people'.

NATIVE AMERICANS, ANYONE?

	27-04-2002 01:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion They invaed it, in the middle ages. Nowadays, the majority of people there is Protestant, which is a decent reason for keeping it the way it is. It has been like that for hundreds of years, as has been the fact that 100% were ownded by THEM. Your advancing won't get you anywhere, it would take thousand of years and a sleeping public in order to get your claims in Palestine only halfway 'justified'...

Yes and correct me if im wrong, UK has backed the protestants. Which hold down the catholic minority with jim crow like laws.

	27-04-2002 01:47									#21
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The author jumps from France to the entire Europe as the subject in the article. How very moronic. Only uneducated american journalists and frenchmen usually make that mix-up. He's also mix up the french goverments international policy with a (sizable) minority that votes for a pseudo-facist

It's so predicable to label all criticm over Israeli actions as anti-semitism. Just look at it: "What we are seeing is pent-up anti-Semitism, [...]of a millennium-old urge that powerfully infected and shaped European history." oh please come on. It sounds like Europeans didn't do anything else than harrass jews during the last 1000 years. People have been killed and harrassed for millions of reasons. It would be like calling all criticsm of Berlusconi as the result of the 30-year war.

The author is clearly out to promote his own (miss)concepetions of the world instead of making a solid and reasonable analysis.

	27-04-2002 01:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I'm doing it in history for a-level. Protestants emigrated there a few hundred yeas ago and Britain invaded Ireland. Ireland remains under British rule with the Act of Union in 1801. Several failed uprisings, revolutions, etc, later, Britain finally pushes the Home Rule Act in 1914, to grant the Irish and independant state. However, the people in the north are British and wish to remain art of the UK. In the end the Irish were given their own country and the Northern Irish remained in the UK. All is fair, the populace voted for this. However, the IRA think that the Northern Irish should be forced to join the Republic and decided the best way to do this is by bombing British civilians. Americans fund them, feeling the Irish are an 'oppressed people'.

So, because of immigration the protestants became a majority in N. Ireland? And now you keep it because they democratically decided to stay(doh, they're the majority)?

	27-04-2002 01:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Eli So, because of immigration the protestants became a majority in N. Ireland? And now you keep it because they democratically decided to stay(doh, they're the majority)?

Yup. We can't win - we have the IRA now, but if we hand it back we have Ulster terrorists AND a pissed off populace.

	27-04-2002 01:58									#24
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Well the main difference between Northern Island and the Occupied Territories is that the majority of the people in NA want to be part of the UK (although with current bith rate trend this will probably change eventually) while that not exactly the case with the Occupied Territories, but we can't let little things like democracy get in the way of labeling those who happen to think that a fairly unpleasant military occupation may not be the best thing in the world as anti-semitic, now can we?

	27-04-2002 01:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Yup. We can't win - we have the IRA now, but if we hand it back we have Ulster terrorists AND a pissed off populace.

Ooook.

Hypothetically, if in the next 50 years Israel manages to bring 600,000 French Jews, 200,000 Argentinian ones, 500,000 from East Europe and 500,000 from around the world to Judea&Samaria, thus creating a Jewish majority there... Granting the Pals a state in the Gaza Strip and then making a referendum in Judea&Samaria. The majority will, of course, vote for staying in Israel.

Will you support Israel then?

	27-04-2002 01:59									#26
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Why am I not surprised you don't reply to my post...

	27-04-2002 02:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Ooook. Hypothetically, if in the next 50 years Israel manages to bring 600,000 French Jews, 200,000 Argentinian ones, 500,000 from East Europe and 500,000 from around the world to Judea&Samaria, thus creating a Jewish majority there... Granting the Pals a state in the Gaza Strip and then making a referendum in Judea&Samaria. The majority will, of course, vote for staying in Israel. Will you support Israel then?

Yes we will, because you will have gained that majority by a very blunt method. Of course it's pretty smart, but it's naughty enought not to be tolerated. And then, it also depends on how those people are spread over the region. And if settlements stay considered illegal (and they will), you'll hardly get a majority in those 22%

	27-04-2002 02:04									#28
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Firstly, faded is right.

You euro pacifists have lost all proportions, and see every military operation as a "massacare" and "genocide".

FACT: People, even innocent people, die in wars.
FACT: People, even innocent people, get displaced in wars.

NEWS: Israel is in war with the Palestinian terrorists and most of it's leadership (since they participate in terror).

True, it's sad when innocent palestinians die or become injured, or lose all their belongings. I feel sorry for them. I sometimes think what would I do in that case, but I mostly try not to.

The fact is, that 18 months ago, no one except the PLO leadership, and the Israeli intelligence dreamed that this would come.

If we were fighting a regular army I would support bringing in international troops.

But we aren't. We are fighting terrorists who work covertly.

So the international forces would lack the power or will to stop terracts.

They will however, stop every Israeli action directed at cleaning out terrorist nests.

	27-04-2002 02:05									#29
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Building settlements on land that doesn't belong to your country is regular warfare then?

	27-04-2002 02:06									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Ooook. Hypothetically, if in the next 50 years Israel manages to bring 600,000 French Jews, 200,000 Argentinian ones, 500,000 from East Europe and 500,000 from around the world to Judea&Samaria, thus creating a Jewish majority there... Granting the Pals a state in the Gaza Strip and then making a referendum in Judea&Samaria. The majority will, of course, vote for staying in Israel. Will you support Israel then?

I don't know. Circumstances different though - you wouldn't have been there for centuries.