28-04-2002 22:21									#151
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I think it was only in case of German invasion.
Anyway, theoretically there was no war between Poland and USSR. Soviets claimed there is Polish state no more, and Poles had orders not to fight with Soviet troops unless
Only one bigger city tried to defend itself against Soviets, Grodno, and it paid for that. Poles were aware no-one woild risk a war against USSR anyway.
I'll ask someone or will check it but I'm almost sure it is like I wrote.

	28-04-2002 23:05									#152
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2/10

Every (european) criticism of Israel is called "anti-semitism" nowadays. Well, so be it. Since you think we're all anti-semites anyway, this won't shock nor surprise you.


(note: sarcastic post, though I'm sure some people will be offended)

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	29-04-2002 00:22									#153
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St marcus: you're clearly an anti-semite so who cares what you think!

	29-04-2002 00:59									#154
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hehe


about Le Pen. He is anti-semetic, but pro Israel. Why? Well, he doesn't particulary like the Jews (since the guy is as close to neo-nazi as one can get), but he knows that Israel isn't a threath to France. However, he does think the Arabs (including the pals) are a threath to France.

	29-04-2002 01:37									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus hehe about Le Pen. He is anti-semetic, but pro Israel. Why? Well, he doesn't particulary like the Jews (since the guy is as close to neo-nazi as one can get), but he knows that Israel isn't a threath to France. However, he does think the Arabs (including the pals) are a threath to France.

I think this illustrates that the original Zionist thinking was right. The Jews would get no respect and would continue to be persecuted until they had a state of their own. The right's respect for Israel, I predict, will soon translate in to less anti-semitism.

Ned

	29-04-2002 01:40									#156
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quote: I think this illustrates that the original Zionist thinking was right. The Jews would get no respect and would continue to be persecuted until they had a state of their own.

*looks at Manhatten*

Say what?

	29-04-2002 01:41									#157
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Oh please. We're talking about the opinions of a far right extremist here. Main stream Europe isn't anti jew (though probably anti israel). So in fact, there's far less respect in Europe for the state of Israel nowadays, and a lot more for the Jewish community still living in Europe.

	30-04-2002 12:25									#158
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It is really funny this talk about antisemitic Europeans.. especially since it's well known that there is a large muslimic minority in France, members of which are likely to be responsible for the synagogue attacks. Since these are immigrants, and their hatred arises out of the Middle-East tensions between Arab muslims and Jewish Israelis (and especially orthodox and fundamentalist hardliners on both sides), it is a pretty stretch to conclude there is a historical habit of antisemitism in Europe still today. It's simply utter crap. A bit of Zionist propraganda on the small scale, someone's own agenda.

The real question, though, remains this:
1) Why of all people have the Israelis, or at least their elected governments, not learned a lession out of WWII and the holocaust?
2) The Israelis have economic wealth, education, a liberal democracy (or at least they had) and freedom. Why do they envy the arabs in Palestine even for the land they live on, build settlements?

It is a strange irony that a democracy is an oppressor of the people of Palestine. It is very clear, why the Arabs ressort to terrorism: it is the only lever in this struggle they have left. If you corner an animal, it will go berzerk. The people of Palestine have been cornered for 50 years, living as refugees, without political stability or their own land.

	30-04-2002 13:47									#159
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Sh.t ! I've missed this Lone Start anti-eu (anti-french) troll ...


I will not sleep for a mounth ...

	30-04-2002 16:13									#160
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quote: It is a strange irony that a democracy is an oppressor of the people of Palestine.

Perhaps it isn't so much of a democracy....

I do not doubt the democratism of the Israeli society, but I doubt that a society that only part of the population are "citizens" is really democratic.

Following that, even the first democracy in the world, Athens of the 5th century BC, was highly undemocratic, since a very small fraction of the population were citizens. Of course those citizens enjoyed the priviledges of the highest democracy (direct democracy) but what good was it if they all belonged to a single social class and had the same interests. Their sovereignty was assured, that's why they had the priviledge of being democratic. The same goes for the capitalist democracy of our time, in which the lower social strata were only allowed into politics when they no longer posed any threat to the system.

Isn't this somewhat the situation in Israel?

	30-04-2002 18:04									#161
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quote: Why of all people have the Israelis, or at least their elected governments, not learned a lession out of WWII and the holocaust?

My thoughts exactly.

	01-05-2002 01:37									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Korpo The real question, though, remains this: 1) Why of all people have the Israelis, or at least their elected governments, not learned a lession out of WWII and the holocaust? 2) The Israelis have economic wealth, education, a liberal democracy (or at least they had) and freedom. Why do they envy the arabs in Palestine even for the land they live on, build settlements?

I think the lesson the Israelis learned from World War II and the Holocaust is that they must defend themselves because they cannot rely on the "civilized" world, particularly the Europeans, to defend them when they are attacked. It is remarkable that the United States, seemingly alone, understands this and at the Europeans do not.

Ned

	01-05-2002 02:03									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the lesson the Israelis learned from World War II and the Holocaust is that they must defend themselves because they cannot rely on the "civilized" world, particularly the Europeans, to defend them when they are attacked.

Do you really think they are that dumb? How unkind.

	01-05-2002 02:07									#164
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What I love is how Europeans explain that they're not anti-Semitic because it's all the Arabs fault and use animal analogies on the Palestinians. (yes, I know that the vast majority of Europeans are neither racist nor anti-Semitic, but it does strike me as a strange defense - we're not racist, you have us confused with that race of racists, who don't count as us because despite sharing citizenship in our countries, they have dark skin and Saracen faith!)


Please, terrorism is a political strategy. People use it to help them achieve their objectives. When people truly are cornered and beaten, they submit, as the Sunnis did in Syria, the Maronites in Lebanon, and the Shi'ites in Iraq.

And I don't particularly see the relevance of the Holocaust to the matter.

	01-05-2002 03:31									#165
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quote: I think the lesson the Israelis learned from World War II and the Holocaust is that they must defend themselves because they cannot rely on the "civilized" world, particularly the Europeans, to defend them when they are attacked.

Seems you didn't learn from WW2 either. The main lesson is, that oppresion is terrible. Not war itself, but the oppression resulting from it, caused the greatest suffering.

	01-05-2002 03:52									#166
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At least the greek "racists" have tried to send a C130 full of medical staff plus a special earthquake rescue team (EMAK) to Jenin, to look for survivors inside the ruins, but the Israeli "humanists" have stopped them. Not even for the sake of finding and burying the dead wouldn't they let us go and withness the results of the massacre.

quote: Please, terrorism is a political strategy.

Exactly like war: a continuatiion of politics by other means...

But if it is a political strategy, why is this recent anti-terrorist frenzy?

Perhaps is would be more correct to say that state-terrorism and the global antiterrorist witchhunt is a political strategy. And a very devious one too.

	01-05-2002 03:55									#167
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Because most people consider it a despicable political strategy. Not that they can agree on a definition for "it" though.

	01-05-2002 04:10									#168
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yeah, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.

Now, Ashcroft labeled kidnapping an act of terrorism. There used to be a time when blowing up military outposts was consider guerilla warfare, when kidnapping was simply a crime and when building WMD was simply "building WMD". Now, it's all "terrorism". The Colombian rebels are terrorists. As are the Palestinians. And the Chechnyans. And the Falun Gung. And Sadam Hussein. And the North Koreans. And the UCK. And the Molukkers. And the Kashmeri rebels. And the Nepalese Maoists. etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Basically, anyone not on your side is a terrorist. And to them, you are a terrorist as well. If you kidnap someone you are a terrorist. If you developed a nuke you are a terrorist, unless you are pro-west, or Chinese. If you opose the governement of your country, you are are a terrorist as well.

Total and complete bullshit. The whole war on terrorism is complete bullshit. The whole axis of evil rethoric is bullshit. Hell, this entire planet is made up of bullshit.

	01-05-2002 04:18									#169
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Amen brother!

	01-05-2002 05:05									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus yeah, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.

In other words, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter?

Bull$hit.

A basic definition of a terrorist would be a non-govermental person or organization that takes action against a civilian for political motives.

By this definition, persons taking action against military targets would not be terrorists but could be considered freedom fighters or guerrilas.

	01-05-2002 05:14									#171
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quote: By this definition, persons taking action against military targets would not be terrorists but could be considered freedom fighters or guerrilas.

So the freedom fighters that hit the Pentagon have nothing to do with the terrorists that hit the twin towers?

And what about the terrorists who were carpet-bombing North Vietnam and were blowing up busses full of people in Yugoslavia?

	01-05-2002 05:16									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Hell, this entire planet is made up of bullshit.

Rings true.

You are right that the word terrorist can be thrown about too liberally. Some people used to use 'Commie' the same way. Some others use 'rich' or 'Fascist' to label anything they are against.

What I am utterly opposed to is anyone who focuses on civilians as targets. Period. Full stop. When it comes to people who hide among other civilians and creep out from under their rocks to murder people indiscriminately... Well. I've said what I think about them before.

	01-05-2002 05:20									#173
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quote: Originally posted by axi So the freedom fighters that hit the Pentagon have nothing to do with the terrorists that hit the twin towers?

IMO, if they had attacked the pentagon without blowing up a plane load of innocent people they would not be terrorists, no.

quote: And what about the terrorists who were carpet-bombing North Vietnam and were blowing up busses full of people in Yugoslavia?

If they're wearing a uniform and acting on behalf of a government they're called soldiers. Its called war.

	01-05-2002 05:28									#174
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quote: Some others use 'rich' or 'Fascist' to label anything they are against.

The correct term is "bourgeois". Have you ever heard of bourgeois ethics? Of bourgeois art? They existed as characterisations in the Soviet Union. Being related to anything characterised as "bourgeois" was a ticket straight to the gulag sometimes.

quote: If they're wearing a uniform and acting on behalf of a government they're called soldiers. Its called war.

And it has rules, which are broken by people in uniform who are targetting civilians. How anbout the Geneva convention?

Anyway, who said that because something is war, it is justified? War on terrorism isn't justified, fe...

	01-05-2002 05:54									#175
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quote: Originally posted by axi And it has rules, which are broken by people in uniform who are targetting civilians. How anbout the Geneva convention? Anyway, who said that because something is war, it is justified? War on terrorism isn't justified, fe...

The Geneva Conventions may not apply in all cases. They have limits. They were not written with an eye to hand-cuff nations who are involved in hostilities with other nations who do not recognize those Conventions.

Your earlier allusion to Vietnam is an interesting one. It is probably the last time the United States will use area bombing in the belief that it will win a war. It demonstrably will not.

At the same time, the United States was involved in a conflict with a government which did not recognize, or certainly did not abide by, the Conventions. In such a case, the Conventions do not apply to their nationals in their territory.

At any rate, yes. The area bombing of German and Japanese cities during the second world war were not pleasant things. Neither was the area bombing of North Vietnam. I think most Western countries today would go out of there way to avoid such actions because in none of the cases did it lead to an end of hostilities. Except for the case of Japan, but then the Japanese were threatened with total and complete nuclear destruction (they didn't know there were no more bombs at the time).

'War on terrorism isn't justified'? How so? When a state sponsors hostile acts against another state, that is an act of war according to international law.

	01-05-2002 05:59									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus yeah, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.

Guerrilas (freedom fighters, if you are feeling poetic) are not terrorists. They are irregular soldiers who wage war on regular military forces, secret police agencies, and governmental counter-insurgency police units. Guerrilas do not prefer civilian targets. They do not conciously select civilian victims.

	01-05-2002 06:10									#177
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According to you . I consider Hamas, PKK, ETA, IRA, guerrila groups.

I'd consider the people that tarred and feathered British tax collectors to be freedom fighters... though the Brits at that time (and even now) would called them terrorists. And some Irish consider the IRA as freedom fighters.

Depends on your point of view.

	01-05-2002 06:20									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui According to you . I consider Hamas, PKK, ETA, IRA, guerrila groups.

Hamas, PKK, & ETA are terrorist groups, Imran. Stop being obtuse in your avowed zeal to cheer on the murder of women and children.

The IRA was a guerrila group early in its history but that time has long passed.

	01-05-2002 06:37									#179
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It seems that if the United States decides you are a terrorist, you just might have a problem.

	01-05-2002 06:52									#180
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quote: Hamas, PKK, & ETA are terrorist groups, Imran.

And guerrila groups. The US seemed to think that the UCK (in Kosovo) were guerrilas, and we do the same about the Chechens.

quote: It seems that if the United States decides you are a terrorist, you just might have a problem.

Good point.