27-04-2002 20:13									#1
	Am I a anti-semite? Increase Your PM Length

Welcome all (well not all, some i would rather be without ) to this thread about me! (no i'm not an ego, no way )

The reason for this thread and (possibly somewhat) provoking title is the current leaning of the ongoing Israel/Palestine debate here at the OT. I've seen quite a few statements, links and articles that points out Europans and lefties criticism of the policies of the goverment/state of Israel in the areas ocupied in 1967 and against the palistinian populace.

Since I'm at least geographicaly speaking am a european and my views often have a left-wing perspective because of my socialist background (although i'm not a socialist in the most convetional form or definition)...

...And...

Since almost all criticism from people like me (in the broades form of definiton of 'me' as explained above) have been labeled as grounded in ati-semitism;

I'd like to ask all those that more or less regulary takes part in the ongoing OT debate on the issue and thus have some grasp of my view considers me a anti-semite. I've never considered myself as one but some recent statements not directly aimed at me but still aimed in my direction seems to imply that.

I'm intrested to hear...

Last edited by Kropotkin on 27-04-2002 at 20:57

	27-04-2002 20:15									#2
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Anti-semitist isn't a word.

	27-04-2002 20:17									#3
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You are an antisemite not if you believe Israel is responsible for the current conflict but if you believe that Jews are.

	27-04-2002 20:18									#4
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That's not it either.

You'd be one if you thought they were evil because they are what they are.

	27-04-2002 20:20									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion That's not it either. You'd be one if you thought they were evil because they are what they are.

That's the extreme example. If you identify someone with something they didn't do, solely because of their race, you're racist.

	27-04-2002 20:22									#6
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But how is it antisemitic to say the conflict was fed by the Jews? That's just a plain generalization.

In my understanding antisemitism is racism against Jews that does not occur together with racism against other peoples or does to a higher extent. Or something like that.

	27-04-2002 20:25									#7
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I classify people who deny the Jewish right for an independent state in their homeland as anti semites.

You dont have to agree with Israel's policies, you can compare Israel to Nazi Germany(in this case you're stupid, not anti semite), you can think that the 1947 borders are the correct ones, etc. But denying the right of the People of Israel to have a state in the Land of Israel puts you on my black list.

	27-04-2002 20:25									#8
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And who cares for YOUR list?

	27-04-2002 20:28									#9
	Does this get me on the list? I hope so. ;) Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Eli I classify people who deny the Jewish right for an independent state in their homeland as anti semites.

You had Uganda in your grasp and you turned it down. Your all idiots in my book.

	27-04-2002 20:29									#10
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Can someone explain to me the matter between Israel and Uganda?

	27-04-2002 20:30									#11
	I classify people who deny the Jewish right for an independent state in their homelan Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The problem is that Jews have no homeland.
It's not Palestine at least. Perhaps Polesie...

	27-04-2002 20:36									#12
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Rats. I guess that makes me an antisemite, being a) a leftist b) critical of Israeli policies c) do not agree that the Jews have/had more rights to a piece of land than the people who have been living on it for centuries.

	27-04-2002 20:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion But how is it antisemitic to say the conflict was fed by the Jews? That's just a plain generalization.

The conflict was fed by CERTAIN Jews. Noam Chomsky, for example, is a Jew but did not feed the conflict. If you group him with Ariel Sharon purely by virtue of race, that's anti-semitism.

	27-04-2002 20:44									#14
	Re: Does this get me on the list? I hope so. ;) Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You had Uganda in your grasp and you turned it down. Your all idiots in my book.

Even if the Zionist movement had accepted Uganda the project would've failed. The vast majority of the Jews wouldn't have left their homes to some hellhole in Africa. Everything was spinning around Jerusalem.

quote: c) do not agree that the Jews have/had more rights to a piece of land than the people who have been living on it for centuries.

There is nothing wrong in that. The question is whether they have this right at all? Thinking that the Jews have this right but they should have only the Greater Israel/67/47/Phil comitee/whatever borders is the same in principle. As long as you dont deny the right for a state like Heresson, who apparently forgotten what his countrymen did not a while ago, does.

	27-04-2002 20:57									#15
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Ok, besides the attack on my unfortunate spelling i don't get a dencent answer...

	27-04-2002 20:59									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Ok, besides the attack on my unfortunate spelling i don't get a dencent answer...

What's wrong with mine?

	27-04-2002 21:06									#17
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That was decent I supose but since you've seen a lot of my posts I didn't get your perception of me. (that was kind of the point)

	27-04-2002 21:08									#18
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Of course you're an antisemite, just like me. We're European after all

	27-04-2002 21:14									#19
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If you've ever critisized Israel, Jews, people who might be Jews, people who support Israel, people who might know someone who is Jewish, or are European or Arab then you are an Anti-Semite.

	27-04-2002 21:36									#20
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Hey eurocommies, relax

Kropo, no you're not.

UI is crying wolf about being called antisemite even thoug I haven't seen anyone calling him that.

To my knowledge he hasn't hurt Jews around him.

He does however deny the Jewish right for homeland and self defense usually, but I don't think that's enough to be called an anti-semite.

The problem is that the eurocommies automatically side with the underdogs. And commies are just plain silly in my view.

It's also no suprise that they like the pals the most, since the palestinian leaders were all best friends with USSR and learnt the best propoganda tricks from them.

HMBob, no.

	27-04-2002 21:37									#21
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Can someone explain to me the matter between Israel and Uganda?

	27-04-2002 21:38									#22
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There were Jews living in Israel prior to Zionism.

Israel is the biblical homeland of the Jews.

	27-04-2002 21:43									#23
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Biblical is a damn long time ago.

	27-04-2002 21:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Biblical is a damn long time ago.

The point is not that we used to live there, but that there is a special significance to the land that is not shared by Uganda.

	27-04-2002 21:48									#25
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I couldnt really care less if some self-righteous, self centered israelis are having their black lists

	27-04-2002 21:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The conflict was fed by CERTAIN Jews. Noam Chomsky, for example, is a Jew but did not feed the conflict. If you group him with Ariel Sharon purely by virtue of race, that's anti-semitism.

I think thats a fair definition.

	27-04-2002 22:52									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The point is not that we used to live there, but that there is a special significance to the land that is not shared by Uganda.

Uganda?

	27-04-2002 22:54									#28
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Yes, what the hell is the matter between Israel and Uganda????

	27-04-2002 22:55									#29
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No Kro, your not, but you often take such a postion, intentionally or not.

Most people aern't, I use it (the statement that people are anti-semtic) as a wake-up call.

Far to many peole look on Israel as an evil place, and say the Jews should get the f*ck out, despite the fact that it is where they came from, and that they have been persecuted EVERYWHERE else (even in the USA) they have tried to live.

Any fair minded person need only look at the facts and see who is in the wrong, and it isn't the Jews, they want to make deals and live in peace, but for numerious reasons (politics, religious hatereds, ect) they are constantly attacked and harrassed, and when they fight back, are called facist and other less then flattering things.

The real problem I often see with Europeans is they see Islamic violence as explainable and justified, but when Israel responds they are "murderes and nazis', a truly sickening double standard.

Read any history of Israel, and you see a continous pattern, arab states lauch attacks (conventiobnal or commando), the UN does nothing, Israel responds, and the UN imposes "cease-fires" and threats.

This happened in 48, 56, 67, and 73.
When Israel is losing, from the UN, silence, when Israel is winning, threats and cease-fires forced on it.

The PLO was born in 65 as a political animal, it had NOTHING to do with displaced peoples, it was formed as a poltical plank to use aginst the Jews.
Anyone can look all of this up, it's clearly documented.

One of the more disturbing things seen is the violence against Jewish peoples and places in Europe, instaed of outrage from European posters, I see comments about how it's "blown out of proportion", or "no big deal".

Ask your selves if this would be the case if it was Jews blowing up mosques in Europe and desicrating Islamic cemitaries, as well as beating Muslims in the streets of Europe, would it be blown off the way it is with the inverse?

I used to try to reason with people here, based on fact and logic, but after dealing with it for some time, you see that intelligent argument is useless with many of them, only bombastic statements make any impression.

A good example was the fool the other day that tried to claim that the USA was a massivily racist state against arabs, and that is the route cause of ME problems!

How can you speak rationally to such an idiot?

The Jews deserve and fought for their homeland, and they are keeping it.

The Palestinians also deserve their own homeland, but not on Israel's bones, and not through excessive violence and hatered.
If they want to be a nation, they need to behave like civilized people and stop suicide bombings, terrorism, race hatered, stop cheering when inocents are slaughtered, ect.

Believe me, if they did that and Israel STILL moved troops into their cities, the USA would NOT stand for it.
We do, as a people, because we see what is going on, not the silly propaganda that is often spewwed, quite often from a leftist side, but also rightest. (In the USA, right wing conservatives DO NOT favor Israel)

Hatred and violence will get the Pals nothing but more misery, but if they change their ways, they can have almost all the things they desire, a homeland all their own, and the right to live freely.

	27-04-2002 23:17									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Uganda?

The idea was that there was going ot be a Jewish state in Uganda.

However, it was not so, for reasons explained above.