04-05-2002 01:53									#1
	Custom Race- Best Stats? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Lately the main things ive been wanting is best industrial stat, best research stat, and democracy. what should i be aiming for?

	04-05-2002 04:23									#2
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Democracy is very expensive, +7 or 6, not my fav choice. Creative is a more useful choice (+6 or 8). You need to take as many negs as possible to have enough points to do it. Spy, Combat are good minus choices. Low -G can be used as well. If you want to get a high score then you need to not use all of your points. +1 or +2 research is about all I would spend.

	04-05-2002 08:06									#3
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Aquatic can be quite nice

	04-05-2002 23:04									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Democracy is very expensive, +7 or 6, not my fav choice. Creative is a more useful choice (+6 or 8).

Besides, with democracy other players can steal you blind. But if you must play democracy, try lithovore, democracy, artifacts world.
You get so much good tech in the beginning, and i've spoken to other players who swear by it. ( I personally dont like them bec their production sux).
As a beginner player, creative is useful, but if you're an expert its better to spend the pts elsewhere since you can get your missing tech anyway from stealing, conquering, or demanding.

I'll put two other posts for good race choices.

	04-05-2002 23:22									#5
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I am not sure what an expert is, but to me the choices are about what you are trying to accomplish (Single Player mode). Playing for fun, I like creative as I enjoy getting new tech, playing for score I skip it as it is expensive and the points are better use as a score modifier, playing to experiment take it or leave it, depends on what you are testing. I am knowledgeable, but not an expert I suspect, even though I have won at all levels. Moo1 I am an expert.

	06-05-2002 11:21									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I used to play with this (in moo2 version 1.2):
- unification (no morale, increased food&ind)
- subterranean (a MUST!)
- creative (used to be must, not anymore)
- -20% spies, ship off., ship def.
- -10% ground combat

... there were some variations in the negatives. I don't like the creative option anymore. It makes the game veeeryyy booooriiiing... , so I have started playing with uncreative races (randomnes is nice - but not in the biology techs: who needs death spores?)

	06-05-2002 13:11									#7
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My favourites (without the patch which bumped creative up to 8pts).

Creative (6)
Telepathic (6) ?
Omniscient (3)
Cybernetic (4)

Penalties
Spying (-2) ?
Ground combat (-2)
Growth (-4)
And one other (I forget which)

I don't think I've ever lost with this combo (All on imposs but with a huge galaxy).

	06-05-2002 20:25									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Creative is the best, but it's not very fun, it's too easy.

So I take

lowg, -10 ground combat, -1/2food
Subterranean, cybernetic, telepathic, +10 spy, large HW.

	06-05-2002 22:04									#9
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Ravagon, it must be Poor HW -1.
I forgot, I should mention, I use 1.31 so creative is 8. As I recall they made significant changes to the play over 1.2. The AI was too willing to give up systems and they made it so the attacker goes first when attacking planets. This is huge as often the battle can be lost if they go fist or at least more damage is suffered.
IMO play impossible on a small universe on 1.31 can not be done with out cheating. I have won on Huge, but not on small. They are on you too soon and steal every thing you have. I am talking about 6 or more players, a low number may work, not sure. By turn 150 they have shown up with 9 or 10 systems and are stealing and killing my spies. On huge it takes 300 turns often before they show up and I can have more spies in place and defenses.

	07-05-2002 20:01									#10
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I'll have to try that. I'd play advanced tech though, and creative but you might consider that cheating

	07-05-2002 21:37									#11
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Unification(6) + Tolerant(10) + +1 Industry(3) + Large HW(1)
Repulsive(-6) + -1 Ground Combat(-2) + -1 Ship Defense(-2)

Easiest race in the game, since you can't have more production than this! More prod means more colony bases and c. ships, so you have more pop, and therefor more science.

Sweet, sweet race!

	07-05-2002 22:22									#12
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Uncreative + Repulsive

Gives something of a challenge on Impossible and will inflate
your score with a whooping 340%. Can't beat that.

	07-05-2002 23:09									#13
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I actually like to play with adv tech, it jump starts the game.
Uncreative and repulsive are super since I like to be at war all the time anyway.
I do not use Unification normally, since you don't need the boost that badly. I like subtrean for the boost in pop. Like I said before, you can win with most any setting on most levels. I would not include impossible levle though. On that level you need all the help you can get, especially on smaller universes. I just now finished an impossible level, but had to do it on Huge map.
+1 prodution, -10 ground combat (everyones fav), low g -5, unification 6 (ok, wanted the boost), subteranean 6, -20 ship attack -2, warlord 4. 6 races and adv tech.

	08-05-2002 02:48									#14
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Moom, I should mention that you can't beat the 340, but you can match it with any combination that has the full -10 picks and does not use any positive picks. That is if you research Fungi. I wish you had not mentioned it though. I looked at my high score run and it was done with 280, so now I will have to make another run to see if I can do it with 340. The score was 13910 on a med universe. I am not sure how it will come out as
658 turns score
3213 pop
300 eliminate players
185 captured
250 anatarian
262 tech
100 ORION
4968 x 280 = 13910

turn score may go down, eliminate will surely go down,
the other part is the population. I had subteranean so I will lose pop. I just do not know if the loss is large enough to offset the extra 60%. I would think not. I will get around to trying this later. It is a bit of a pain to make the scoring runs and not much fun. That is why I have not tried it with a bigger universe. That would up the score, but make the pain greater than I can stand.
My guess is about 14,790 for a run at 340 on med.
The scoring and custom races are the items that has started to make me put Moo2 over Moo1. The thing that holds me back is I still play more Moo1 than Moo2. Tuff call.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 10-05-2002 at 11:14

	08-05-2002 02:53									#15
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BTW you could run up a bit more in captured if you do not elimate the AI as fast as you can, but would take more turns, not sure if it is worth it. My friend let them retake planets so he could capture more people. If they gave 2 points for each capture, like they say they do it would work for sure. By that point in the game you are begging to end it and do not want to put it off any longer.

	08-05-2002 17:57									#16
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Yeah. I know any -10 pick race will eventually yield 340%, but I happen to find uncreative+repulsive the most difficult. Impossible is a breeze with most races. With this, starting next-doors to the sillys and the daloks you'll sweat a bit before the inevitable victory comes your way.

I had a couple of games where I couldn't get to 340%, since I couldn't research the racial improvement myself and nobody else went for it. God, that's frustrating.

Since the score is infinite - planet pop capture outweights turn loss - high scores are pretty meaningless.

A much more interesting challenge is to win with a _low_ a score as you can possibly get. That's actually quite fun.

	08-05-2002 23:16									#17
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I guess I am not worthy as I do not see impossible as easy (again no editor or cheat codes). What do you mean the score is infinite? It is essenially very finite. You can only have so many races and so many planets, etc. The only way to score higher on the game I posted is to have more planets in your system or finish faster. Finishing faster and still growing your pop to the max is going to have very little room for improvement. I say that because you are basiclly sitting around with all planets, but one until your pop maxes out. I in fact stopped with room for 4 more pop, but it would have taken longer to grow, so I would have had a lower score. The tech will not go higher as a bug does not allow the additional tech to be counted. The other way would have been to have a higher bonus, which I will try later with 340 instead of 280. I am not sure this will be succesful due to the increase difficulty of gettint to the other races with less skills and the loss of "sub" for pop boost.
Anyway I have tried the technics talked about and all of my own, but do not see winning at impossible at small universe as a true probability. Someone will have to post a rundown for the first 200 days to show me the way, I do not see it. At a huge universe, it can be done. I have not tried the in between sizes to see where it breaks down.

	09-05-2002 01:50									#18
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I think you're very worthy indeed. But I play almost exclusivly on huge, where winning on Impossible is a breeze. While small is more difficult, I simply cannot force myself to play a "universe" with ten stars... I hope Moo3 allows seriously huge galaxies.

And score is infinite. As I said, you get more points for captured pop than you lose for turns, so you can effectively pump your score how high you want by beating the AI down to on tiny toxic, giving it your highest populated system and recapture it the same turn (or in as many turns as there are planets) and reperat that till your mouse arm starts bleeding.

	09-05-2002 13:54									#19
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Heh. All of this sounds too much like a bug for my liking (Not that I've ever given much thought to scores).
Why should you receive benefits for captured citizens but not penalties for losing your own?

	09-05-2002 20:41									#20
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Ah, but you aren't losing them. You're giving them away as an act of friendship and trust, remember?

	09-05-2002 21:37									#21
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Moom, your are correct, I guess I should have stated and not implied, no recatures. That would mean revolts either, as you could retreat and not build alien control or marines or armor barracks. That would not insure a revolt, but it would be likely. I normally have ships stationed until all three facilities are built. This prevents revolts in all but a very rare case. I normally do not play for score either, just for a test to see what things work better than other things or tactics. There is a point (different for diff size universe) where the amount of points given for turns goes down, which is why you would not create all of the pop allowed near the end.

	10-05-2002 11:24									#22
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Well, it was not so good.

591 turn score (took a little longer to finish
2323 pop much lower
300 elimination
113 captured got them faster and they were smaller
262 tech
100 Orion
250 Antarians

3939 * 340 = 13393.
It may be that some of lower pop is due to fewer planets in this universe and lower quaility (more small/tiny/toxic), but some is due to lose of Sub trait. Big article on Gamespot for Moo3.

	10-05-2002 15:16									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, to max out a 340% you need to capture sakkras and populate all your planets with them. I usually go for the sakkras (or the sillies as an intermediate step) first, and kill of my own race when playing. There's no reason losing all that valuable real estate just 'case your not subterrean yourself.

	10-05-2002 21:07									#24
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Moom that is a great idea and I am starting to not like you for making all this work for me. I don't no why I forgot that tactic. Since my race had no positive traits any race would be benifical, but Saks would be best. The boost does not account for all of the lower pop though. I actually had one more colony then before and the boost is worth 15% at best so it must be due to a lower than expected quality on the planets. Too many tiny/small/toxic. I still do not understand why it took so long to finish 368 turns instead of 302 or something like that. I think I grabbed the last race at about the same time frame less than 200 turns. I may have delayed colonizing the empty planets longer, not sure. It should not matter as I colonize them in a few turns by having everyone make ship or bases and artificial planets. If I get the missing 900 appx pop it would add more than 3000 pts.

	11-05-2002 00:56									#25
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dictatorship
lithovore
artifact home world
subterran
large home world

=> more than 500 science in turn 100 (robotic/pollution/supercomputer/cloning/...)

You won't find much faster races out there :B

	11-05-2002 01:07									#26
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Moom that is a great idea and I am starting to not like you for making all this work for me.

I humbly apologize. Never intended to make you sweat! There should be a convention against having to play more moo than strictly neccessary, shouldn't it?

Anyhow, I think winning with the lowest possible score is much more of a challenge anyway. Much more interesting.

	11-05-2002 03:36									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I is not about winning as that is a given, it just a test and a task and I am a nut that must finish a given project. I am not sure what you mean by lowest score, but then again maybe I should leave it alone.
Yup many good traits, but the problem for me is I can not have any positive traits for this run, only the 10 negatives. Dictator would be ok as it is a 0 point, but I wanted the max neg, so I use feudalism -4.
In other word I haave Feudal -4 and Repulsive -6 and no others. During evolution I do not allocate and of the 24 points, hence 340% modifier. Using Moom idea, which I had seen before, I grabbed Saks first and send a citizen to any new colony I start or capture. It turns out just having one of them causing the trait to be used and boom an instant increase it the planets max size, very strong. I am only eliminating or capturing planets when I have to, so they can grow some. I see someone heading for a race that is down to it last planet and I send ships there and attack the challenger to protect the race until I get troops there. So I do not need to have a better race. I should give them all any terraforming or pop increasing tech I have, but some how that goes against my grain. Any way a low capture is not the big problem.

	12-05-2002 00:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot Unification(6) + Tolerant(10) + +1 Industry(3) + Large HW(1) Repulsive(-6) + -1 Ground Combat(-2) + -1 Ship Defense(-2) Easiest race in the game, since you can't have more production than this! More prod means more colony bases and c. ships, so you have more pop, and therefor more science. Sweet, sweet race!

Well... you can have more production than this, if you don't want to tech...

feudalism(-4), repulsive(-6)
tolerant (10), +1 prod(3), rich hw(2), +1 food (4), large hw (1)

=> 30 real production at the beginning
=> 45 production for ships (2/3 ship costs)



rush rush rush :B

	12-05-2002 09:06									#29
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That is why this game is so good, so many ways to play. BTW
656 turns
300 players eliminated
3162 pop (thanks MooM)
156 captured
262 tech
100 orion
250 antarans
4886 * 3.40 = 16612
Enough test for awhile.

	12-05-2002 15:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 That is why this game is so good, so many ways to play. BTW 656 turns 300 players eliminated 3162 pop (thanks MooM) 156 captured 262 tech 100 orion 250 antarans 4886 * 3.40 = 16612 Enough test for awhile.

Hmm, nice. Now, did you know it's actually possible to cram in tree victory conditions at once? If you do it right, you can win an Antares victory, an Diplomatic victory and a military victory (well, almost) at once. It costs you 50 p off the eliminated races score, but ou gain the diplo victory bonus.

I'll leave the details as an exercise to the reader, unless you all beg me to reveal the details