24-07-2002 21:33									#61
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I have played many Uni races and of course Sub/Aqua is a very strong boost. IOW what you say is true, but I have never been fond of Uni. I just do not like it much. The assimilation is horrendous and the only real good is the +spy. For 6 ppicks, I will take + growth or production or research. Take two of these and no assimilation issues. Plus food is not very valuable to me after the early part. I will have food to burn. Bombing colonies down to next to nothing so you can assimilate them, stinks. I want those pops and you will lose a lot of buildings. A Dem assimilates 1 in 4 turns. The no morale boost hurts as well. You will be making marine barracks anyway, holo and or Pleasure Dome really shine. I would much rather have tele over uni in a non MP game. Drop the Uni and use the picks for P/R/S and see how you fare. I sometimes use + spying so I can steal sooner. Plus P and R is very handy. I like Sub, but often skip it and use those picks for other boost on the basis that I will capture another sub race and gain that trait through slavery.

	25-07-2002 01:23									#62
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vmxa1, you're being waaaay too narrow minded!

Why do you want to try to assimilate the enemy's population, when:
1- Your's better (it's subterranean and aquatic)
2- You should have several colonies pumping out an extra pop figure every 3-4 turns (over 250K pop growth with just 1 figure making housing with automated factories and biospheres) that you send to your newly acquired planets.
3- With the +1 production bonus and the unification production bonus you have enough production to make lots of transports, discarding the need to bomb any planet whatsoever(unless you don't want the planet because it sucks)!
4- You spend less time invading planets than managing your colonies, so you get faster development with the early boost that Unification provides, than with Telepathic, wich you'll only use properly when you can reach far and fast (proper fuel cells and engine drive tech)!

It's funny you mention spying, because if you have Planetary Supercomputers (a must in every game), you can have both enough production to make spies and research points to increase the technology gap between you and your opponents!

Let yourself go, vmxa1, and try it.

	25-07-2002 02:37									#63
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Like I said, I have played that race many times and it is fine. I just do not experience any great production with it as everyone keeps telling me. I do not see it. Understand I have measured it and it is not there.

Now I do not like to make frieghters and ship pop around. That is just me, I do not say I am right, just that I do not want the work. I like to capture planets and save the effort of building everything. I am not a big fan of tele as I find it is good for only the first capture or so. After that I am giving up the 6 picks that could be doing better things. The capture still requires me to beat the defenses. If I can do that I can capture with transports and use the picks to make me stronger with +r or +p. If I have sub/aqua then I will sent over one of my people to boost the planet. I will not bother to keep sending pop to fill the planet with any race in any game, too much work. I like to grab a planet and not let anyone take it back. If I can not hold it, I will destroy it or wait.
The bombing is require by Uni to be able to hold a planet. If you jump on a large planet as a Uni and do not bomb it down to 4 or less, it will likely revolt as the 1 pop per 20 turns is forever. Try holding a Saks planet with 30-40 pop. It is nearly impossible with just marines and it takes 800 turns to assimilate. To bomb to 4 or less, I may as well bomb to 0. I have done it and it is a real drag to keep waiting for the rebels to stop. I hold them, by unloading as many marines to the planet as it will hold. If you don't and do not have AMC & Arm Barracks you will lose the planet.
So in short, I do not see Uni as a great pick. I only mentioned Tele as a better and more useful choice, but not the one I would take. I do acknowledge that the race is strong and can be used to kick butt. But then you can do that without any positive picks if you want to do it.
BTW, I would not use Sub as a pick normally as I will rely on getting a slave race for that trait. Aqua is a pick I might take. So UniSubAqua is strong. but not for me.
As to loosing up, man I have played all the race traits at all the levels, how loose do I need to be?

	25-07-2002 02:43									#64
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I am not a big fan of tele as I find it is good for only the first capture or so. After that I am giving up the 6 picks that could be doing better things.

I agree with most of the things you say, but would like to point out that I love late-game tele, not because it's good or particularly useful, but because I hate transport micromanagement. If I have tele, I can be bothered to conquer. Otherwise, I just eradicate.

	25-07-2002 02:44									#65
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Oh, and I'm no big fan of uni either. Except combined with tol, that is

	25-07-2002 03:25									#66
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Yes, you are correct. Tele at the end is as useful as it is in the very early part. It is the time in between that I do not value it (that is not to say it is worhless). I do appreciate it at the end when I do not have to sent troops and the planet it is fully ready to go. I just wanted to point out that the pick may be spent elsewhere to strengthen your race. Morale boost are often over looked, they are vey powerful. Holo + Dome to all planets, man that is a lot of production.
My whole purpose is not to be right or a know it all, but to argue merits and if one has the better point, then I will adopt it. IOW, I am here to learn or verify. That is why I appreciate everyones response. I really like to see post of games and races other use or tried to give me an excuse to play another game. I found the saved games Garth post to be very inspiring (even if it fell short of the 200 turns).

	25-07-2002 04:56									#67
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Well, re: the telepathy debate, I've always found it highly useful throughout the entire game. During the middle portion it can be used very effectively to neutralize enemy new-build bases before they get their defenses up, hence you can cut off their supply.
If its not a planet you can/wish to hold and you don't want it retaken just give it away to another race you aren't at war with. You can even wait until your opponent has diverted a fleet towards it (as he almost surely will) before giving it away - buying more time for defensive construction.
For basically undefended worlds you only need a single cruiser+ class so its easy to keep the opposition completely off balance.
Even allowing a fleet to retake a planet can be highly beneficial. They will almost always send far more transports than they need - then when they send their fleet onwards the remaining transports are often left behind. Easy prey for a lurking cruiser which takes them out and reoccupies the planet, leaving the AI down a half dozen or so transports and diverting their fleet again - this time without the ability to retake the planet.
Good timing and surgical telepathic strikes can keep you relatively safe for a long while inflicting a constant resource drain on the opposition.

I'm not saying that those picks might not be better otherwise put into other picks - just that they can be used effectively to give you options that you otherwise might not have.
Personally I tend to value that sort of flexibility far above and beyond bonus picks that give you +production or +gold or somesuch others which, if used conventionally, might amount to a much stronger force.

Last edited by ravagon on 25-07-2002 at 05:06

	25-07-2002 06:08									#68
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Again all true. The problem I have is that I do not find many unprotected planets that I can reach. When playing with out Creative. I often do not have fuel cell tech to get very far and when I make outpost they are over run, so I can not make much use of tele at this T200 to T300 range. I supose I could change things a bit and do it.

	25-07-2002 19:45									#69
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Telepathic is my favorite pick. Aside from the conquering which has been addressed. You also get a spy bonus and a diplo bonus.

It's incredibly strong. Why take +ind or +tech or whatever where you have to actually colonize planets to make use of those picks, when for the cost of about 2 colony ships you can build two cruisers and take any planet that doesn't have a missile base or fighter garrison.

Hmm, I guess I addressed the conquering again

	25-07-2002 21:14									#70
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Yep. I have said Tele is the real over powering trait. People like to poke fun at Creative as being too easy. I say nay, it is Tele that makes it easy. The problem I have with it is I am not as aggressive as some, so I do not get max use of it. I do not like to grap a planet and run off leaving undefended. My lack of enthusiasm for it is not to say it is not powerful, it is. It just does not suit my style as much. Uni, is different to me, I do not think it is all that great. As you say you have to colonize planets to take advantage of +P/R and that is what I like to do. Plus I seem to find my neighbors as quick to attack me and to have defenses (MB will stop cruiser runs).

	26-07-2002 00:40									#71
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Creative is too easy. It's not my favorite pick for that reason. The only time I usually use it is on advanced tech games, because I don't want the AI to make the early game picks for me!

	26-07-2002 02:18									#72
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What do you mean by too easy? The last time I lost a game was as a creative race, I never lost one as a tele? All it really does for you is to make it so you do not have to make a choice in a given field. That will not do much as you select all of the research and production tech anyway (well it will later in the game). It lets you have HA and MB, when you otherwise would do with out them, not going to win the game for you. Take those 8 picks and grab +r and +p or Demo or Tele and you are stronger. I just do not see it as a game winner for 8 picks. Mind you I do not use it much, but it will not win the game and tele can. I know you take that one. I no longer view having to choose one tech over another as a big deal, as I know I will have enough to win. I see that MP players do not choose it and will choose tele. If I do take creative, I would rather not use adv tech. I do not like it as I have too much to build and a massive AI race can jump me, they wil have better growth or production than most creative races.
I just wonder if the reason people say creative is too easy is a hold over from when it was 6 picks and that was too powerful. What is the evidence to support the claim that it is too easy? By that I mean in comparison to another big pick. In a sense it all is too easy, but relative to others it is no more or less difficult. It is easy to play as you do not make any choices. That is how I see it.

	26-07-2002 02:21									#73
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BTW the I am only talking about impossible as it does not matter much at the lower levels. You can win with nearly any race.

	26-07-2002 20:48									#74
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What do you mean by too easy? The last time I lost a game was as a creative race, I never lost one as a tele?

I have lost on impossible as tele, but I can't remember ever losing as creative.

The extra techs are what makes it more powerful. I have so many more options in the early and mid points of the game. With the ability to get all the missiles, armor, and planetary defences my colonies are basically immune from attack. Well defeat anyway.

I get the better battle computers, plus graviton beam and class 3 shields giving me a great early-mid game ships. Plus I get holo simulator and the other morale enhancing buildings. Giving more than the bonuses you can get with 8 points.

Given that you play more of a defensive style and I play more offensive I am surprised we are not having this discussion from the other ends of the table

	26-07-2002 21:14									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader The extra techs are what makes it more powerful. I have so many more options in the early and mid points of the game. With the ability to get all the missiles, armor, and planetary defences my colonies are basically immune from attack. Well defeat anyway. I get the better battle computers, plus graviton beam and class 3 shields giving me a great early-mid game ships. Plus I get holo simulator and the other morale enhancing buildings. Giving more than the bonuses you can get with 8 points.

All true. But since you win without them, they only make playing easier. The MB making losing the starting planets a rarity, it can happen, unless you are playing adv tech. I have not lost in a long time, since I got the hang of the play, but when it occurs, it does not matter what race traits I have. It comes down when I have a powerful and aggressive race next to me and they show up with 4-6 BB's every early and make it so I can not expand. Soon I am too far behind to survive. It is a function of a very poor starting postion and poor play by me. I am only questioning the proposition that creative is easy. It is once you get past the 900 rp tech point, before that it is harder than some. In any event once you get past 900 rp, you win with any race. What I am saying is that with some other traits getting to the 900 rp point form prewarp can be done much easier with some other traits. After that creative is easier.

	27-07-2002 01:54									#76
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I tend to play on average tech, I haven't played many games with pre-warp in a LONG time (Although my first few hundred games I was always using it).

I accept that taking tech bonuses would be more of an advantage to get to the 900RP point faster.

But surviving to that point is easier with MB and FG and all the goodies creative gets you.

I have faced 4-6 BB early and I often lose with just a cruiser, but will win with a cruiser and a MB

	27-07-2002 03:25									#77
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Garth, I am sorry, I forgot to mention a key factor in my position and that is this is for a huge map. So most of the time you can survive at the starting planets with just the Star base, unless they can blockade me. A MB will not help me in a blockade. When I do have MB they of course will not attack, but just sit on me. Most of these problems are of my own doing as I do not build ship at the start (unless tele). Once in a while they will attack the star base with less than enough to carry it off. If I get in a blockade, I can usually get a ship or two and attack their fleet and pick off one and fleet and do that until they are dead or leave. This tactic is very painful for the AI as they have lost a big investment are now in jeapordy to others attacking them. I wish I had the mindset to use the more aggressive style as I think it can be used for a quicker victory, but it is not to be. Anyway I still do not see a strong case for creative as the easy win strategy. It may be at an adv tech start as them you have BS, I almost never have them until the game is near over. The games you post awhile back are a good example, my style did not let me get as many planets as fast as you did. I looked at one of those games and saw all the exposed planets and cringed.

	27-07-2002 08:07									#78
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I usually play huge map as well, but don't usually take + production or tech because I usually only colonize a few extra systems. By then the AI is all around and it's easier to just conquer. On impossible they usually have + bonuses and are better than my people.

I'd like to see some of your saved games. I never thought I was that exposed because I never can afford the command points to properly garrison much.

	27-07-2002 11:03									#79
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Next time I fire up a game. What do you want for a race? I am messing around with Mom right now, so probably over the weekend. At what points do want to see them? I conquer, but do not start until after t200. One planet and secure it and then on to the next episode.

	28-07-2002 04:02									#80
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Whatever is fairly typical for you. Save real early, when you are ready to start expanding, and when war starts.

I have been playing around with pre-warp and I remember why I stopped playing it. I understand your race picks a bit more now.

The AI expands like mad. Compared to average tech I seem to meet them only a little later, but without the free colony ship I usually have only 1 or 2 colonies. Everyone I meet has 5-6 systems and who knows how many colonies

You'd love my current game. I took creative, subterranean, +1 tech, +1 industry, lowg, -spy, -GC.

I had a horrible start place, blocked in by a black hole and the Sakkra. At one point they had 10 systems to my one(I had a colony base though). They declared war when I had 3 systems. They got heavyG as a freebie, and somehow researched Battleoids and powered armor.

Ship-Ship combat is going well, they attacked a colony that was defended with GB, MB, FG and a battleship and 2 cruisers. I lost the cruisers and the FG, but took out a column and a half of battleships (I don't remember how many can fit in a column on the tac screen).

But taking colonies is a hoot with the 4 hit battleoids. At this stage the win is assured it's just slow going.

	28-07-2002 05:07									#81
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Yeah that sounds about right. You see what I was saying about creative, it is tough at first and you can get hurt, but then it is time to turn the corner and creative is a monster at that stage.

That is why I listed saks in my top three as they can be a hand full and make the going very rough in the beginning. So fast to expand, while it is very hard for you to get more colonies and hold them. In a prewarp smaller universe with 8 players, you can get killed. That no colony ship to start is brutal. If you have a real bad home with one poor toxic small planet, life can get very homely.
One of the best features about Moo2, is that it plays differently at different settigns. PreWarp/Adv, small/huge, Hard/Impossible and the number of players can make you change your play or suffer.

	28-07-2002 05:11									#82
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I think if you look back at a few of my detail post you will see I have often run into a race with 10 systems to my 1 or 2 and they made me suffer for a long time. It is that point where I have to hang on and get strong enough to make a move that I get my satisfaction. Being able to come from the big defict and take over is the fun part.

	28-07-2002 05:39									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader But taking colonies is a hoot with the 4 hit battleoids. At this stage the win is assured it's just slow going.

That should be fun. 4 hits and you have -gc. Now picture it wil out creative, so no powered armour, no battletoids, no gun unless or until you steal it, maybe I go for plasma rifle instead of cannon at that point as I am suffering. this often my situation, That is why I look hard for a commando officer.

	28-07-2002 07:32									#84
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Yeah even with creative I am only a little above +75 to +65 I have 2 commando leaders at least.

If I wasn't creative and not telepathic I would be bombing everything. Nothing would be worth this bloodbath!

	28-07-2002 07:43									#85
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Cheer up, I nearly lost my game on turn 162. The sillies attacked with 6 ships and I just finished my 1st cruiser that turn. I could not even get my leader onboard. I had my unarmed scout. For the first time in I can not remember, I took fighter garrison and barel survived. I saw my map and knew I would be neededing it. The war is on so here is the games.

Attachment: t40.sav
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	28-07-2002 07:45									#86
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Here is were war started. I gave you t40 (may not be the exact turn), in case you wanted to change tactics before you get buried. I should have and now I will have much to do.
Will be going into steal mode now.

PS
Will I was too busy with MoM and messed this one up. It is a real nightmare and I am not sure it can be saved.
I have had to beat off many attacks of 5-8 ships and it has been a pain. My fleet is growing so, I will soon be able to expand again. I have gotten a few useful steals by loading up on spies and buy replacement for structures that got destroyed during attacks.
I backed up to the T40 and changed it around to grab battle stations. The sillies were makign my life miserable. I tried a different set of picks and they are not so good. I want to see if a change of plan will make a big difference, so far it has by making them start the war much latter.

Attachment: t162.sav
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

Last edited by vmxa1 on 29-07-2002 at 08:31

	29-07-2002 19:55									#87
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Thanks, I'll give it a try when I get home!

	29-07-2002 21:12									#88
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This little experiment has pointed out how big the impact is of the start position and the closest races. I slapped together another race to see how long it took to get into trouble and had the Trils as neighbors. Even though they killed many spies, I was able to steal from them and no action so far. This allows a much better start.

Attachment: save8.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	30-07-2002 05:24									#89
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I really wanted to try playing from your first save, but for some reason everytime I got the laser cannon tech it wiped out all but one of the ship design slots so I could only design one ship.

I don't think that would be a convienent way to play.

Any idea what happened?

	30-07-2002 06:16									#90
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Sorry you said early, I did not know you meant t1. I will start a new one. What do you mean by wiped out old designs? It does not have anything to do with this being XP, does it. You were able to load and play it, so I guess not. Are you talking about t40? What occurred, were you loading in a save ship design and then losing them?