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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
well duh! that's in the middle of the night! A cop will be coming during the day and if you know anything about police, it's that the street cops get orders from higher up. i've said this already in the thread but you chose to ignore it. If a street cop says "no" to any authority, they kick his arse to the curb and he'll be blacklisted. simple as that. |
Cops should not follow illegal orders, just as soldiers shouldn't. Granted, he should not be prosecuted for following orders - thanks for agreeing with my position that the Nuremburg trials were immoral, by the way - but neither should he be protected from legitimate self-defense measures.
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That puts a man, who most likely has a wife and kids, out of a job. |
Boo-****ing-hoo. If one wants to support compromising morality in the name of money, they can go right ahead.
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Therefore, say this cop IS coming illegally....like everyone else on the board has told you: it's wrong to take a life in the way you are depicting. you're not shooting a cop..you're killing a person. |
What makes a cop special? Why is it wrong to use whatever force necessary to protect your private property from illegal search and seizure? That's primarily the purpose of the 2nd Amendment, for Chrissakes - protection from government abuses!
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and i'm sorry, a person is more important than any property. |
So you disagree with my right to kill someone who breaks into my house and tries to steal my VCR?
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what you do is you get evidence of when the dude is there..like video tape him then sue the city. you do not kill him! |
Videotape him?? What makes you think he won't just confiscate the tape? I mean, it's not like you're supporting the right to be secure from illegal search and seizure, so why should you support my right to resist if he takes my tape?
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Guynemer
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Floyd, yes, I totally and 100% disagree with your "right" to kill someone who is trying to take your VCR. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but some things are more important than your personal property, you self-centered narcissistic jackass.
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devilmunchkin
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first circle of the inferno
Jul 2001
time: 05:13
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guynemer : you hit the nail on the head but i would have phrased it differently.
what i'm saying is that it's illegal to kill any human being vs. loosing property UNLESS they are also threatening (which comes before actually doing it) your physical body with a weapon. If a cop busts in your home..some rogue guy cause i doubt this would ever happen now adays....holds up a gun and proceeds to ransack your house without a warrant, by all means also get your gun, if you think you can be faster than he is. I doubt you will be and you'll just get shot.
Where are constituional rights upheld? the court room, not by the way of guns.
Nuremburg trials? what has this got to do with this scenario? I do not even know anything but the basics, so i'm saying nothing on whether i agree or not.
i disagree with your right to kill someone who breaks into your home to steal a VCR when you KNOW HE"S NOT ARMED and willing to use it. No cop is going to just yank out a gun and kill you (esp. you..why? you're white). That's absurd.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
what i'm saying is that it's illegal to kill any human being vs. loosing property UNLESS they are also threatening (which comes before actually doing it) your physical body with a weapon. |
Wrong. In Texas, if someone breaks into my house, I don't have to determine if he's armed or not before I shoot him.
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If a cop busts in your home..some rogue guy cause i doubt this would ever happen now adays....holds up a gun and proceeds to ransack your house without a warrant, by all means also get your gun, if you think you can be faster than he is. I doubt you will be and you'll just get shot. |
If a 1 person can ransack my house AND keep my from pulling a gun, I'd be impressed.
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Where are constituional rights upheld? the court room, not by the way of guns. |
Ah, but the purpose of the 2nd was to ensure there would be a way to defend liberty if the government tried to take it away.
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Nuremburg trials? what has this got to do with this scenario? I do not even know anything but the basics, so i'm saying nothing on whether i agree or not. |
You're argument was basically that the cop would only be following orders. This was the Nuremburg defense, which I agree with, but following an illegal order should be no defense against getting shot.
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i disagree with your right to kill someone who breaks into your home to steal a VCR when you KNOW HE"S NOT ARMED and willing to use it. |
So what should I do if some 6'8", 340 lb behemoth breaks in? Just say "Here you go, have my property", or blow his ass away? I'll go for the second option.
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No cop is going to just yank out a gun and kill you (esp. you..why? you're white). That's absurd. |
You mean no cop SHOULD yank out a gun and kill me, just as no cop SHOULD conduct an illegal search and seizure. If a cop does one, what guarantee do I have that he won't do the other?
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devilmunchkin
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first circle of the inferno
Jul 2001
time: 05:13
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quote:
In Texas, if someone breaks into my house, I don't have to determine if he's armed or not before I shoot him.
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well, perhaps that is a character flaw.
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If a 1 person can ransack my house AND keep my from pulling a gun, I'd be impressed. |
since when do cops come to do such things without back up?
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Ah, but the purpose of the 2nd was to ensure there would be a way to defend liberty if the government tried to take it away. |
the 2nd amendment says you have a right to not have that happen, but it doesn't not say what YOU can do. it just says that cops coming in and illegally searching is illegal and wrong.
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So what should I do if some 6'8", 340 lb behemoth breaks in? Just say "Here you go, have my property", or blow his ass away? I'll go for the second option. |
if he's not armed, it will be easier to restrain him. i never said you couldn't shoot him in the leg..i just said you shouldn't kill him. and this is if you know...if it dark etc etc you're in a whole nother ball game. and then again, what cop would do this at night?
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You mean no cop SHOULD yank out a gun and kill me, just as no cop SHOULD conduct an illegal search and seizure. If a cop does one, what guarantee do I have that he won't do the other? |
david...people stopped replying to this thread because you've taken it to a whole nother level of silly. use your head a bit and realize this situation you're describing isn't only hypothetical but abolutely assinine. You completely threadjacked the thread from what it was about..
the fact that a man snipped off cops who were completely legit in their search without even waiting for them to say anything.
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Jac de Molay
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Detroit
Sep 2001
time: 05:13
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If your father was a cop shot by some red neck for not having a "sieze tractor" warrant, you'd feel the same way I bet. |
A. I strongly resent your use of the racist term "redneck"
B. Where can anybody draw the line between just an illegal search and the over-zealous use of police power? Dont people have some right to be secure on their property without police interference? If your father was one ofthese guys you might think differently. DF has a point. There are many instances where people die needlessly because of brute force by the police, especially because of the "war" of drugs. Sadly, it almost always has to end in tragedy to bring it into the spotlight.
Dave
Last edited by Jac de Molay on 06-05-2002 at 18:41
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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The Diallo case is interesting...in one sense the police were doing their job by being suspicious, but they definitely went way too far. You are certainly correct in that he would have been right to defend himself.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
For some reason , respecting the authorities is something unimaginable. You can sue the police dept. , but shoot him? |
What sets a cop acting illegally apart from a burglar acting illegally? Why should I be able to use force against one and not the other?
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devilmunchkin
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first circle of the inferno
Jul 2001
time: 05:13
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hey..i'm a rednecka nd his gf..so it's ok detroit
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Guynemer
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Thank you, Dal. There seems to be confusion here. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to defend yourself against a cop when you are physically threatened. But to shoot a cop over a warrant? That is where David "Too Bad He Wasn't A Fed" Floyd goes way too far, and I would hope that other people can see that.
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devilmunchkin
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first circle of the inferno
Jul 2001
time: 05:13
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exactly.
it's fanatic
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
completely ruined? We're talking about a case of a entry without a warrant. |
It doesn't ruin your life for someone to enter your house and steal your VCR, but you can still shoot them. I again fail to see any difference with cops - and don't use the "they answer to a higher authority" argument. That's bullshit, because police officers and the organization will work to protect their own - not to mention, it's always possible that same organization gave those orders to begin with.
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Governments may not be always right, but they are responisble. |
You're aware of how much pork is in the US federal budget, right? US taxpayers are getting shafted so Congresscritters and Senators can buy votes in their home district. Responsible? Hardly.
I would also call it irresponsible to use RICO to ruin the lives of innocent people, who made the "mistake" of unknowingly giving a drug dealer a lift, selling them a plane, letting them use their phone, etc.
Guy,
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There seems to be confusion here. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to defend yourself against a cop when you are physically threatened. But to shoot a cop over a warrant? That is where David "Too Bad He Wasn't A Fed" Floyd goes way too far, and I would hope that other people can see that.
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So should we not be able to shoot burglars unless directly threatened? What about defending others? The police exist to uphold the law, and to protect us from the initiation of force. When they initiate force while breaking the law, they cease to be acting in their capacity as law enforcement officers, and fall into the definition of criminal. Just as there's nothing wrong with using force to prevent a burglar from committing armed robbery, there's also nothing wrong with using force against a rogue cop doing the same.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:13
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quote:
It doesn't ruin your life for someone to enter your house and steal your VCR, but you can still shoot them. I again fail to see any difference with cops - and don't use the "they answer to a higher authority" argument. That's bullshit, because police officers and the organization will work to protect their own - not to mention, it's always possible that same organization gave those orders to begin with.
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can't you go to court against the police ?
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You're aware of how much pork is in the US federal budget, right? US taxpayers are getting shafted so Congresscritters and Senators can buy votes in their home district. Responsible? Hardly.
[QUOTE]
well , if journalists would point out much more often to that fact, maybe the citizens would protest it , and wouldn't elect those senators. The US is a special case , because it's basically a one party system , differing on issues so small they'd be considered rediculous in europe or Israel. But the case holds for most countries.
[QUOTE]
I would also call it irresponsible to use RICO to ruin the lives of innocent people, who made the "mistake" of unknowingly giving a drug dealer a lift, selling them a plane, letting them use their phone, etc.
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what do you mean?
good night. I am really tired. It's almost 2 AM now. 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
can't you go to court against the police ? |
Sure - can't you go to court against armed robbers?
Besides, US courts are biased in favor of law enforcement. The only time my word vs. yours will win is if I'm a law enforcement agent and you're not.
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well , if journalists would point out much more often to that fact, maybe the citizens would protest it , and wouldn't elect those senators. The US is a special case , because it's basically a one party system , differing on issues so small they'd be considered rediculous in europe or Israel. But the case holds for most countries. |
I disagree, but in any case we're talking about the US, NOT foreign countries. You said government is responsible, I refuted. What Europe is like is irrelevant.
Just what I said.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
DF, here you said "armed" robbery for the burglar, but you meant just robbery in general, correct? They don't have to be armed, right? |
Yes, but in the case of the rogue cop it would be armed robbery.
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And you say "nothing wrong." What you mean is "nothing illegal." What is law is not necessarily right, and what is right is not necessarily what the law allows. |
No, I meant nothing morally wrong or unjustifiable.
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06-05-2002 05:31
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