07-05-2002 09:46									#121
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Boris,

quote: America did many things wrong during the war, but I'm not only talking about America, I'm talking about all those who fought against the Nazis. And why does committing a wrong while in the pursuit of something that is truly right invalidate that right? Surely, it merely means the wrong on our end needs to be addressed as well, not fighting the Nazis was made wrong because of that?

I'm of course referring to conscription, trade barriers, rationing, and things of that nature, all of which violate natural rights.
We could not have fought and beat Germany without violating the natural rights of Americans, therefore we should not have fought Germany.

quote: What would have been the point of the Convention had it not allowed for the creation of such tribunals, like on an ad hoc basis? How else could they enforce the rules the nations signed on to uphold?

I just looked, and I found no allowance for the establishment of a tribunal.

Ramo,

quote: Detactched bureaucrat? Isn't that a little hyperbolic? Why not let everyone do what they want, and not deal with any "detatched bureaucrats?"

My point was that it's virtually impossible to set down accurate, hard and fast standards, so rather than trying, we should just allow individuals to use deadly force to protect their life and property if they believe they are in danger, and the act of being in someone's home against their will de facto constitutes a danger, so there you go.

	07-05-2002 10:01									#122
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I never said that there should be any standards, just that the situation should be evaluated independently, without any arbitrary rule that using deadly force is always ok.

	07-05-2002 10:02									#123
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quote: I never said that there should be any standards, just that the situation should be evaluated independently, without any arbitrary rule that using deadly force is always ok.

I think deadly force is always OK if there is a legitimate threat to you, and someone who enters your house against your will certainly provides that threat.

	07-05-2002 10:09									#124
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What's the definition of a "legitimate threat?"

And why is lethal force necessary in every case of a break-in? Isn't it unnecessary in some cases of a break-in? If it is not necessary, why should its use be legitimized?

	07-05-2002 10:15									#125
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quote: And why is lethal force necessary in every case of a break-in? Isn't it unnecessary in some cases of a break-in? If it is not necessary, why should its use be legitimized?

I didn't say necessary, I said justified, because of the idea of potential threats.

	07-05-2002 10:21									#126
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"Potential threats?" That's bullshit! "Potentially," anything can happen.

	07-05-2002 10:25									#127
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It isn't bullshit to say if someone breaks into my house, my life could be in danger. Hell, by breaking into my house you'd think he understands the risks, right?

	07-05-2002 10:29									#128
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ok. david, stop being so stubborn. i said it once and i'll say it again: you've taken this thread to a place it wasn't meant to go. The cops had a warrant. But the places you've taken it.....
i'm sorry..it's absolutely absurd. Do you honestly think such a situation like the one you sound so fearful of occuring is commonplace? I can tell you if a rogue cop DOES do something like want to steal your stuff (though honoestly, i bet he'd go after people higher up the food chain sonny) he's one
1) not going to do it in the day
2) and not in uniform
in which case you are justified in whatever.
but i can also tell you though, that if you ever feel it justified to take a cops like, you might as well turn the barrell to your own head and shoot cause you'll be fried anyway. Yeah, courts are biased against cop killers..especially ones wh, like you, are shooting first and asking questions later.
There is also a difference between the threat being deadly and not. If you shoot a someone on your property without them having attacked you..it's murder and not jury is going to see it as self defense. believe what you want david: but realize the rest of society doesn't agree and you should be prepared to face the consequences on the RARE chance that this does occur.

	07-05-2002 10:40									#129
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quote: i said it once and i'll say it again: you've taken this thread to a place it wasn't meant to go.

Well **** - this started by someone asking me what if there was no warrant. It went from there.

quote: Do you honestly think such a situation like the one you sound so fearful of occuring is commonplace?

Not really, although I would consider RICO seizures of property because of the WoD to be commonplace and out and out theft in many cases.

quote: I can tell you if a rogue cop DOES do something like want to steal your stuff (though honoestly, i bet he'd go after people higher up the food chain sonny) he's one 1) not going to do it in the day 2) and not in uniform

Perhaps, but what if he was ordered to? Surely I still retain the right to protect my property from illegal search and seizure, right?

quote: but i can also tell you though, that if you ever feel it justified to take a cops like, you might as well turn the barrell to your own head and shoot cause you'll be fried anyway. Yeah, courts are biased against cop killers..especially ones wh, like you, are shooting first and asking questions later.

Actually I'd ask questions first - stuff like "Do you have a warrant?"

quote: If you shoot a someone on your property without them having attacked you..it's murder and not jury is going to see it as self defense.

Wrong. In TX, if they are IN YOUR HOUSE you can shoot them, because the presumption is your life is in danger.

	07-05-2002 10:51									#130
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quote: Perhaps, but what if he was ordered to? Surely I still retain the right to protect my property from illegal search and seizure, right?

does it matter if you're dead?
any of this. does any of it matter if you're dead...cause i bet they're a MUCH better shot than you.
this is also the first time, iirc, you saying anything about talking to them first when they bust on your home..at least in a civil manner. see..if they have a warrant...of course they're going to bust down your door.
another reason this might never happen to you is that
1) you arn't a farmer
and as much as i hate to say it
2) you're white. makes a BIG difference..esp. knowing what fieldyou're going in to.
the probability that you're basing your fanaticism on it very small.

	07-05-2002 11:01									#131
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quote: cause i bet they're a MUCH better shot than you.

The average cop? I doubt it

quote: this is also the first time, iirc, you saying anything about talking to them first when they bust on your home..at least in a civil manner

No it isn't.

quote: see..if they have a warrant...of course they're going to bust down your door.

A warrant is not necessarily a license to destroy property. If I don't open up they can break the door down.

	07-05-2002 11:06									#132
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this might help
http://www.law.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/A...cst=1&pc=0&pa=0

	07-05-2002 11:11									#133
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I don't see your point, dm - I think there is a valid argument that the police officer had probable cause.

	07-05-2002 11:17									#134
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exactly!
now don't make me open my bag of shh!

	07-05-2002 11:20									#135
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How does that apply to the debate? I don't necessarily oppose the doctrine of probable cause as long as it's correctly and fairly applied.

	07-05-2002 11:23									#136
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it prolly would be for you too

	07-05-2002 11:24									#137
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My refusal to consent to a search does not provide probable cause.

	07-05-2002 11:27									#138
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witha warrant you don't have a choice...righ tnow i'm just showing you what a nut you're being
http://www.law.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/A...cst=1&pc=0&pa=0
see...our law system (and you should know this young skywalker) even has time limits on how soon they have to show youthe warrant. your situation would not happen. you're acting like a lunatic

	07-05-2002 11:28									#139
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If they didn't have the legal right to be on his property, yes it it would.

Er, how would he know if they had a warrant if he started shooting at them when they came through the front gate? In any case, what possible right should anyone have to kill someone for walking on their property? Then again, think of all the door-to-door salesmen and religious zealots the world would be rid of!

	07-05-2002 11:31									#140
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quote: witha warrant you don't have a choice...righ tnow i'm just showing you what a nut you're being

Right but I'm talking about situations without a warrant. That's been the discussion since page 1.

quote: see...our law system (and you should know this young skywalker) even has time limits on how soon they have to show youthe warrant.

That case was about breaking down doors primarily. I'm not refusing to answer the door in a timely manner, I'm refusing to allow an illegal search and seizure, ie an entry with no warrant.

	07-05-2002 11:35									#141
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no: since you entered the thread, it's been about your right to be a cop killer....killing humans while you confuse the issue between other people being in the house and material crap.

	07-05-2002 11:38									#142
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quote: no: since you entered the thread, it's been about your right to be a cop killer....killing humans while you confuse the issue between other people being in the house and material crap.

Bullshit. It's been about my right to protect my private property from illegal search and seizure, and my right to assume a danger to my life if my house is entered against my will. I've said multiple times I would prefer just wounding the culprit, but that I think deadly force is justifiable. Calling me a cop killer is ridiculous - no one, least of all police officers, have a thing to worry about if they are acting legally and not trying to infringe upon my rights.

	07-05-2002 11:42									#143
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you ahve a right to protect without killing unless in self defense of your being or a family members being when dealing with cops. end of story. if you go back and calmly read this thread...most people have been basically calling you a fanatic. do us..and me..a favor and be quiet already. I'm tired of your ****.

	07-05-2002 11:43									#144
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quote: It's been about my right to protect my private property from illegal search and seizure, and my right to assume a danger to my life if my house is entered against my will.

Not if the government, which gave you those rights, doesn't agree.

	07-05-2002 11:44									#145
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David all you are doing is sopunding off libertarian dogma where property is sacred and any violation of it demands deadly force. Where the authorities are always out to get you for whatever reason. Where the Man is always trying to bring you down.

You do this by citing the very questionable, concept of "natural rights" which might not apply here even if accepted. As well as citing some very unlikely stories, well your friend does at least, about cops busting up on people. Keep in mind that for every conflict where the cop is in the wrong, there are probably a great many more conflicts where the cop is in the right.

You also don't seem to see the difference between cops and burglars. Burglars are far more unpredictable then cops. And still can only be killed if they are directly attacking you, shooting a running burglar or one with a VCR is not just at all.

Cops are also accountable to an authority and set of laws. This is a very important point that you do a poor job of refuting by merely citing a conspiracy theory about how the "system" will just side with the cop. Or how the cops "damage" will be irreparable. (Very,very unlikely). That's like saying that since a guy that runs at me might be trying to attack, I should be able to shoot him because he *might* be a threat. True, he *might* be a threat but the chances of that are so small as to be ignored.

You prove that, when taken to its extreme, libertarianism can be just as cruel and devaluing of human life as radical marxism.

All I can say is I am now, after hearing about this tractor, more for gun control then ever. I mean, red necks with guns.....scary sh**

	07-05-2002 11:51									#146
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btw, just to clue DD in on this "redneck", is not a racist term. Cracker ,Jap, Beaner,Nigger and Whop might be--- but not "redneck". That describes a person's lifestyle, not skin color or national/continental ancestry. Kind of like being a "gangster", a "rapper", hippy, goth or bigot.

	07-05-2002 11:55									#147
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Ah, but the purpose of the 2nd was to ensure there would be a way to defend liberty if the government tried to take it away.

Such amendments were designed to protect you from the great unlikelihood of religious nuts (or any other fanatics) coming to power and raiding your house to confiscate alcohol or contraception pills or whatever, rather than protect you from the normal democratic process.

Your greatest asset is your democracy, not guns or tractors or other inanimate objects.

If i lived in Zimbabwe right now, i'd be all for it, but if i lived in benign 'ol U.S of A, i'd prefer to keep it in the constitution for generations to come who may have to actually worry about such things

	07-05-2002 11:57									#148
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isn't ideas of persecution a symptom of schizophrenia?

	07-05-2002 11:59									#149
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dm,

quote: you ahve a right to protect without killing unless in self defense of your being or a family members being when dealing with cops.

If a rogue cop breaks and enters, he's no different from a regular armed robber in my book.

quote: end of story. if you go back and calmly read this thread...most people have been basically calling you a fanatic. do us..and me..a favor and be quiet already. I'm tired of your ****.

Stop replying and *ignore me* then.

LR,

quote: You also don't seem to see the difference between cops and burglars. Burglars are far more unpredictable then cops. And still can only be killed if they are directly attacking you, shooting a running burglar or one with a VCR is not just at all.

Again, if someone breaks into my house I can legitimately shoot them.

quote: Cops are also accountable to an authority and set of laws.

So is your average armed robber.

quote: This is a very important point that you do a poor job of refuting by merely citing a conspiracy theory about how the "system" will just side with the cop.

If a police officer is killed, the person who shot him WILL automatically be presumed to be at fault by the government. How is this just.

quote: That's like saying that since a guy that runs at me might be trying to attack, I should be able to shoot him because he *might* be a threat.

If he is aggressively moving towards you within a certain distance you can defend yourself to the point of striking first. If he's so much bigger than you he constitutes an obvious threat, you can pull a gun.

	07-05-2002 12:00									#150
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quote: Stop replying and *ignore me* then

hey..it's my thread dumbass