06-05-2002 00:52									#31
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I'm probably exceptional in that I consider myself extremist left-wing while most people on the left would consider me center-left as best.

	06-05-2002 00:57									#32
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quote: Our research shows that blacks comprise 62.7 percent and whites 36.7 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prison, even though federal surveys and other data detailed in this report show clearly that this racial disparity bears scant relation to racial differences in drug offending. There are, for example, five times more white drug users than black.

This is so misleading that it really makes me think ill of Human Rights Watch. There are five times more white drug users than black, but more than five times as many white people as black ones, so blacks actually do use drugs at a higher rate than whites. Using absolute numbers as opposed to percentages in this case is a very cheap trick to avoid dealing with that fact.

	06-05-2002 01:03									#33
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aww, now see Carver, look what you've gone and done. You've made a nice respectable liberal-leftist like me go and agree with Natan.

Moral of the story: Propoganda corrupts the minds of even the most well-meaning individuals, and destroys any chance at making a sound argument.

	06-05-2002 01:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Natan This is so misleading that it really makes me think ill of Human Rights Watch. There are five times more white drug users than black, but more than five times as many white people as black ones, so blacks actually do use drugs at a higher rate than whites. Using absolute numbers as opposed to percentages in this case is a very cheap trick to avoid dealing with that fact.

Do you put a bucket over your head every time your eyes are confronted with the truth?

"There are five times more white drug users than black". That means 80% of those convicted for drug offences should be white. But they are not. Why? Because they are white. The laws are only enforced against minorities.

	06-05-2002 01:13									#35
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Okay, you got me completely there. :
But as I understand it, it's the dealers who go to prison.

	06-05-2002 01:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by orange Propoganda corrupts the minds of even the most well-meaning individuals, and destroys any chance at making a sound argument.

The propaganda present in America is the same propaganda that has always been present: "blacks are criminals and lazy and deserve anything bad that happens to them". Likened to President Theodore Roosevelt saying, when faced with lynchings of blacks throughout the South and denial of blacks' voting and property rights, that blacks needed to enfranchise themselves, I can't do it for them. What a pittiful excuse for a "government" the U.S. has had.

	06-05-2002 01:19									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Do you put a bucket over your head every time your eyes are confronted with the truth? "There are five times more white drug users than black". That means 80% of those convicted for drug offences should be white. But they are not. Why? Because they are white. The laws are only enforced against minorities.

Urban ratio of Blacks to white is damn near 4:1

Factor in standard of living Blacks compared to Whites.

You do the math. I agree that there's a problem, but it isn't racial, it's urban vs. rural.

Cops don't go around with a quota from 'the man' "Be sure to arrest 10 Black guys for every 1 White guy"

	06-05-2002 01:24									#38
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quote: Originally posted by orange Cops don't go around with a quota from 'the man' "Be sure to arrest 10 Black guys for every 1 White guy"

No, most don't. But cops in urban areas are told, "arrest as many people as possible". Whereas cops in rural areas are told, "be friendly, get the cats out of the trees, don't OD on doughnuts...".

	06-05-2002 01:27									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Carver No, most don't. But cops in urban areas are told, "arrest as many people as possible". Whereas cops in rural areas are told, "be friendly, get the cats out of the trees, don't OD on doughnuts...".

Cops in any area pick their battles...but I'd say a rural cop is MORE likely to arrest someone they find doing/selling drugs than an urban cop is because it's all too common in the cities, and they know as well as you do that the minute they take the guy off the streets, another poor sap will come out and replace him.

	06-05-2002 01:30									#40
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Ah, what do other Libertarians support that I disagree with? Nothing really, although I think it is necessary to eliminate social services, welfare, subsidized health care, the minimum wage, etc., before opening our borders.

	06-05-2002 02:41									#41
	Put an end to popups!

A good example of the racial disparity with respect to drug enforcement in the USA is the difference in penalties for crack (used primarily by african americans) vs powdered cocaine (used primarily by white americans) despite the fact that its the same drug.

	06-05-2002 03:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Carver to quote Human Rights Watch: Our research shows that blacks comprise 62.7 percent and whites 36.7 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prison, even though federal surveys and other data detailed in this report show clearly that this racial disparity bears scant relation to racial differences in drug offending. There are, for example, five times more white drug users than black. Relative to population, black men are admitted to state prison on drug charges at a rate that is 13.4 times greater than that of white men. In large part because of the extraordinary racial disparities in incarceration for drug offenses, blacks are incarcerated for all offenses at 8.2 times the rate of whites. One in every 20 black men over the age of 18 in the United States is in state or federal prison, compared to one in 180 white men. So you see, law enforcement in the United States is, as it always has been, biased against people who are not white. The letter of the law may make no distiction between the 'races', but the police, while enforcing the law (selectively) do. Drug use is just as rampant amoung whites in America as it is amoung blakcs; but the police in white neighborhoods don't stop and frisk people for no reason as they do in minority neighborhoods. And when drugs are found on whites the police just tell the offenders to throw the drugs into the bush or into the garbage. In synopsis, when the playing field is level, we can terminate affirmative action. Thank You. P.S. For further enlightenment: HRW

Control for income levels and tell me how it comes out. You'll find that a poor crackhead (white or black) is a lot more likely to

a) get busted, and
b) do time

than his rich cousin doing coke in Beverly Hills is...

	06-05-2002 03:20									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Natan This is so misleading that it really makes me think ill of Human Rights Watch. There are five times more white drug users than black, but more than five times as many white people as black ones, so blacks actually do use drugs at a higher rate than whites. Using absolute numbers as opposed to percentages in this case is a very cheap trick to avoid dealing with that fact.

Natan, as far as I see it, he's not claiming that blacks don't use more drugs than whites per capita, but that incarceration levels for blacks are much higher than you would expect, given their share of the drug-using population.

Note the disparity between there being 5 times as many white drug users, but twice as many black inmates on drug charges.

	06-05-2002 03:28									#44
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Yep, note the crack-powder cocaine sentencing disparity, for instance.

	06-05-2002 06:59									#45
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Thanks for trying to thread-jack this into a discussion on racial quotas in relations to criminal arrests and prosecutions.

I believe that the law enforcement operates on the racist ideology in cities where white cops clearly dominate, and where minority officers are nill.

Now, back to the topic --- start a separate thread on race and law enforcement if you wish.


Oh, and can you guys stop flaming David Floyd? Unless you're just joking with him.

Give him a chance to show that he is not an extreme libertarian, and then let him discuss what he sees as too extreme in libertarian ideology. (don't get me wrong --- I strongly disagree with David on many points, but I try to respect him)

He might have misread the theme of this thread, but I think we were all guilty at one time or another for mistaking a thread's topic.

	06-05-2002 07:09									#46
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quote: Oh, and can you guys stop flaming David Floyd? Unless you're just joking with him.

Oh, it's no biggie...I think mostly people are just ****ing around, and I'm trolling anyway

	06-05-2002 07:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, it's no biggie...I think mostly people are just ****ing around, and I'm trolling anyway

Ah-ha!!! So you ARE provoking this lynch mob!

But anyway --- are you an extreme libertarian?? Or do others just perceive you to be an extreme libertarian when you're really not??

	06-05-2002 07:24									#48
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I don't consider myself extreme, but many would.

Rest assured, everything I say id what I believe, but it's fun to use my beliefs to troll people out, especially right-wingers

	06-05-2002 07:27									#49
	Tired of ads?

You do a fine job in appalling us sensible moderate-liberals as well. Keep up the good work, and you might end up without my protection from the next Apolyton lynch mob.

	06-05-2002 08:33									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov However, I am a huge believer that when the Founding Father's said "well-regulated," they meant it. So strident regulations on firearms is no problem for me either. You gun nuts can just wait for the FBI to do a background check, it won't hurt too bad. Unless you have something to hide, which means you shouldn't have a gun anyway. And don't get me started on cop-killer bullets.

Perhaps you could explain to me exactly what a "cop-killer" bullet is?

	06-05-2002 08:49									#51
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A "cop killer" bullet is perfectly legitimate ammo that has the added bonus of penetrating most body armor.

Felons already can't own guns, so banning certain types of ammo not only gives off a presumption of guilt, but also affects only law abiding citizens.

	06-05-2002 11:06									#52
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David Floyd, my favorite nemesis --- there is no legitimacy in cop-killer bullets. Law-abiding citizens -- for the most part, have no need to kill cops.

	06-05-2002 14:41									#53
	Got spare money?

If you're Libertarian I'd say you draw the line at Anarcho-Capitalism, no?

	06-05-2002 17:09									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov 3) banning firearms -- idealistic, but totally UNREALISTIC Not even idealistic, as I have no problems with sporting guns. In fact, hunting rifles are a must. Hunting helps keep deer and other wildlife population under control and prevents ecological damage.

says the man who lives in one of the bigges metropols on earth... oh please *wipes tears from eyes*

I think there is better way to keep wildlife population under control, and it is called HIGHWAY or FREEWAY

And exactly WHAT ecological damage you might refer to? Deers are ruining the finely balanced ecology of New York?

	06-05-2002 18:01									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Across the line: Regulating guns Regulating orivate business outside of anti-fraud laws Funding any social services Funding foreign aid Banning drugs Banning any other victimless crime as well (gambling, prostitution, etc.) Coercion And things of that nature.

1. Without regulation on guns, society would turn into the old West. Only instead of six-shooters, everyone would have assault rifles. And since the frontier towns are cities now, there would be many times over the amount of violence. David, even with gun regulation, over 30,000 people a year are shot to death in the US. The US has the highest per capita murder rate of any Western Nation, and also the least restrictive gun laws.

2. Even at this juncture, business isn't regulated enough. With less regulation, businesses would engage in more pyramid schemes, joint monopolies, and parallel pricing scams even more than they occur today. Society would become like a feudal system. 1% of the country would hold 99% of the wealth, or more even.

3. Did you know that corporations receive more welfare money that is used in all other social programs for the lower class? And without these social programs the streets would be filled with even more drug dealers and criminals than they are today.

4. Without foreign aid, countries wouldn't be able to develop, or sustain, their economies or infrastructures. Like it or not, the capitalist system you worship has forced the US into a symbiotic dependency on foreign aid. Without aid, other countries would suffer economic collapse and in this global economy, when one country fails, other follow. That's when fascist regimes rise up. Although I don't think you'd be opposed to that.

5. OMFG, I actually agree with you.

6. HOLY SH!T IT HAPPENED TWICE... I bet the devil is making some wicked snowmen.

7. I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate.

	06-05-2002 18:16									#56
	Remove this text

My line is pretty much anything that puts takes away my right to choose in favor of arbitrary government rules and regulations.

	06-05-2002 18:39									#57
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i have some gripes
- gay 'marriage' (okay, but they should invent their own word)
- gay pairs adopting
- abolishment of capital punishment

two gripes at the other end:
- keeping blasphemy as a part of the penal code
- keeping religious holidays (instead, please increase the number of non-working days that people can use as they see fit)

	06-05-2002 18:50									#58
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Normally, I'm a tolerant person. But I still have my limits.

1. Misleading and deceitful governments and political parties (especially during the weeks leading up to election days)

2. Scapegoating against any legitimate demographic.

3. Tax-exempt status on religous estate.

4. Legalisation of nonsensical religious practices such as "Faith Healing".

That's all that comes to mind at this point.

	06-05-2002 19:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun David Floyd, my favorite nemesis --- there is no legitimacy in cop-killer bullets. Law-abiding citizens -- for the most part, have no need to kill cops.

Don't you understand MrFun. These bullets are ideal for killing small game. Same with Semi-automatic assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, and of course the nuclear warhead. Not to mention that all of these can be used for protection during a break in to your house.

Get with the times!

	06-05-2002 20:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by orange Don't you understand MrFun. These bullets are ideal for killing small game. Same with Semi-automatic assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, and of course the nuclear warhead. Not to mention that all of these can be used for protection during a break in to your house. Get with the times!

Yeah -- you're right. Our society is not crazy enough for David, so that why he proposed unregulated firearms and unnecessary types of ammo.