05-05-2002 09:29									#1
	Where do you draw the line??? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

For those Apolyton members who do not consider themselves to be extremists with the political ideology that they adhere to --- where do you draw the line, and declare: "Ok, beyond this point, it is too extreme for me."

For instance, I am a moderate-liberal. What I consider to be too extreme and repugnant among extreme liberals are the following:

1) seeing marriage as an institution of gender slavery -- the extreme feminists in this case, would want to abolish marriage as an institution

2) allowing unrestricted abortion for all development phases of the future baby --- abortion for convenience as a reason

3) banning firearms -- idealistic, but totally UNREALISTIC

And these are only a few that I can think of right now that many extreme liberals would hold as their values.
Another example --- the reputation of Berkley in California scares me --- I would not feel comfortable there.

So, with the political ideology that you adhere to (communism, socialism, libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism, federalism, etc), how far do you go?? To what point is your own ideology too extreme with your values??

	05-05-2002 09:41									#2
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My political idealogy is using common sense.

Therefore I can never go too far.

	05-05-2002 09:51									#3
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David Floyd's theories

	05-05-2002 09:52									#4
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NO NATIONAL SALES TAX!!!

	05-05-2002 09:56									#5
	Re: Where do you draw the line??? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think I'm more liberal than you in some regards, but I have some fairly conservative views on some issues (like the budget...and I mean real conservative deficit hawkishness as opposed to today's "fiscal conservatives," who are nothing of the kind because they'll gladly rack up debt to give out tax breaks to bajillionaires...anyHOO).

quote: Originally posted by MrFun 1) seeing marriage as an institution of gender slavery -- the extreme feminists in this case, would want to abolish marriage as an institution

I am 100% in favor of abolishing the government recognition of marriage. I don't believe the government has any business getting involved with people's relationships whatsoever. And unless they can be fair and give it to everyone (hint hint gay marriage) then nobody should get it. Period. However, the gender slavery argument you mention is stupid and I don't buy that.

quote: 2) allowing unrestricted abortion for all development phases of the future baby --- abortion for convenience as a reason

Yeah, too far. If you're beyond second trimester and haven't had the abortion yet, tough titties. Unless of course the life of the mother is at stake or the baby is going to be born with severe trauma. For rape an incest, again, no excuse waiting to the last trimester.

However, I firmly believe abortion should be legal--for whatever reason--through the first trimester. After that, it gets hazy. But frankly, I'd rather leave that whole mess up to the breeders, cuz gay little ol' me doesn't have any business since I don't have a stake in it.

quote: 3) banning firearms -- idealistic, but totally UNREALISTIC

Not even idealistic, as I have no problems with sporting guns. In fact, hunting rifles are a must. Hunting helps keep deer and other wildlife population under control and prevents ecological damage.

However, I am a huge believer that when the Founding Father's said "well-regulated," they meant it. So strident regulations on firearms is no problem for me either. You gun nuts can just wait for the FBI to do a background check, it won't hurt too bad. Unless you have something to hide, which means you shouldn't have a gun anyway. And don't get me started on cop-killer bullets.

Liberal Things that are too extreme for me:

1) Communism. Nope, it's a failure meant for an ideal world full of ideal people, and that ain't gonna happen. While I would like to see some socialist aspects (one MUST is national healthcare, no doubt about it), I also think free enterprise needs to be there.

2) Affirmative action quotas. Now, this is a right-wing bogeyman as quotas are currently illegal, but I think it should stay that way.

3) Reparations for slavery. Puleeze. Like Al Sharpton needs any more money.

4) mandatory vegetarianism. I'm mostly vegetarian, but don't want to force my views of dietary lifestyle on others.

5) extreme animal rights/end of lab animal testing. While I would love to see Barnum and Bailey shut down, I am glad Bayer will test its meds on animals before I take them, so I don't end up being the one killed by them. Sorry animal lovers, but that's the food chain and our priviledge as the sentients on this planet. I abhor animal cruelty, but if killing a few bunnies in tests may cure Cancer or AIDs, so be it.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of now.

	05-05-2002 13:52									#6
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Well, one could be described as a moderate extreme right/fascist.

I draw my line at: violence, anti-semitism, racism. That is all that comes to mind.

	05-05-2002 13:54									#7
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I'm a moderate-Communist so I don't think this topic applies to me.

	05-05-2002 13:58									#8
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I'm a Libertarian Republican... so there is plenty I can find repugnant in my two parties .

Libertarians:

- Abolishing the income tax
- Abolishing foreign aid
- Privatising EVERYTHING

Republicans:

- Moral Crusades
- Moral Crusades
- Oh, did I mention, Moral Crusades?

Both:

- No restrictions at all on firearms (I wouldn't be averse to licensing of gun owners).
- Rhetoric against welfare (as a whole)

	05-05-2002 14:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Simon Darkshade Well, one could be described as a moderate extreme right/fascist. I draw my line at: violence, anti-semitism, racism. That is all that comes to mind.

Well, I consider myself a moderate left, and I would start with the same things, if they come from extreme left or right wingers (ok, racism seems more common in extreme right groups) does not play a role for me.

But what the hell is a moderate extreme right/fascist? That sounds pretty contradictory to me...

	05-05-2002 14:56									#10
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I'm a member of the Liberal Democrats, and I agree with the vast majority of their policies. I'm not 100% sure about their European integration policy, but I think that's about the only issue where I'm not totally with them. Most people think that letting the conference make policy instead of the leadership is one of the things that contributed to keeping the Lib Dems out of power, but personally I think it's quite refreshing - a nice antidote to Labour's centralism and control-freakery.

However, there's another side to me - my sister is a member of the SA (Socialist Alliance) and I find myself agreeing with an almost scary number of their policies. I don't really think I have such a thing as a 'line' to draw - more a division that I think exists between idealism and realism. Some things I think 'yeah, that'd be great - but would it really work?'

Out-and-out Communism, though, that's where I draw the line. Socialism I like, Communism I hate. Weird, but that's me.

	05-05-2002 15:18									#11
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Where do I draw the line? Somewhere far to the left of you lot

	05-05-2002 15:23									#12
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I consider my line more a squiggle around whatever position I'm holding at the time

	05-05-2002 16:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Well, I consider myself a moderate left, and I would start with the same things, if they come from extreme left or right wingers (ok, racism seems more common in extreme right groups) does not play a role for me. But what the hell is a moderate extreme right/fascist? That sounds pretty contradictory to me...

Well, one is moderate compared to others on the extreme authoritarian right, in that I am not a foaming at the mouth, goose-stepping, Turner Diaries reading, skinhead who wants to exterminate everyone who is not pure white/Aryan (I once had a shaved head, have read the Turner Diaries in disgust, and have been known to demonstrate the art of goose-stepping, though )
But the political label that sums me up best remains "fascist" or extreme right. I agree with a lot, but not all, of what M. Le Pen and the BNP put forth, for my own reasons, but remain quite different from George Lincoln Rockwell, David Duke or Reinhard Heydrich.

Thus, it is not a contradiction, but simply a demonstration of the complexity of the political spectrum, and the many wondrous contradictions present in the human condition.
I disagree with communism, but do not advocate their lynching or gassing, as it is against the law, and quite messy.
I once got called a Nazi Zionist, which was quite amusing.

	05-05-2002 21:10									#14
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homosexuality

	05-05-2002 21:44									#15
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I have a mixup ideology of liberate and social views. Since it is kind of unique there is no line to draw

	05-05-2002 22:35									#16
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Across the line:

Regulating guns
Regulating orivate business outside of anti-fraud laws
Funding any social services
Funding foreign aid
Banning drugs
Banning any other victimless crime as well (gambling, prostitution, etc.)
Coercion

And things of that nature.

	05-05-2002 22:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Across the line: Funding any social services

You gotta love those people who are either arrogant or rich enough to think that they'll never need social services, and therefore they can be done away with...

	05-05-2002 23:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic You gotta love those people who are either arrogant or rich enough to think that they'll never need social services, and therefore they can be done away with...

awh here it goes...

	05-05-2002 23:10									#19
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Across the line: Regulating guns Regulating orivate business outside of anti-fraud laws Funding any social services Funding foreign aid Banning drugs Banning any other victimless crime as well (gambling, prostitution, etc.) Coercion And things of that nature.

David, were you too slow to get the point of the exercise? In your genereal ideoology what are some ideas that are too far out? For instance, personal ownership of atomic bombs?

	05-05-2002 23:14									#20
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He's okay with that.

	05-05-2002 23:17									#21
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Any of the excesses of communism that you want to mention are basically not cool with me. Race-based affiramtive action is also out.

	05-05-2002 23:23									#22
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It's reading thread like this that really reminds me how different the political map is over there... As an European I find the very notion of branding feminists as liberals as, well, hillarious.

Me, I draw the line at people who think their own pet religion/ideology should be state-sponsored - be it the American moral majority, the Islamites, the feminists, the commies or whatever other do-gooder who wants the state to force their collectivist horse manure on me.

	05-05-2002 23:26									#23
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You're missing the point too.

	05-05-2002 23:37									#24
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Race-based affiramtive action is also out.

When race-based police murders and race-based enforcement of the drug laws are gone, I will agree with you.

	06-05-2002 00:07									#25
	Re: Where do you draw the line??? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MrFun For those Apolyton members who do not consider themselves to be extremists with the political ideology that they adhere to --- where do

Dave, note that this caveat eliminates you from participating in the discussion.

	06-05-2002 00:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Carver When race-based police murders and race-based enforcement of the drug laws are gone, I will agree with you.

Excuse me, I was just wondering if you could let me know what propoganda medium you subscribe to? I'd love to pick up a copy. I could use a few more laughs.

	06-05-2002 00:23									#27
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orange, the rebuttal to this claim , me thinks , is a simple 'two wrongs don't make a right' , I think.

	06-05-2002 00:45									#28
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quote: Dave, note that this caveat eliminates you from participating in the discussion.

We should only hope that that caveat eliminates him from participating in any discussion .

	06-05-2002 00:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by orange Excuse me, I was just wondering if you could let me know what propoganda medium you subscribe to? I'd love to pick up a copy. I could use a few more laughs.

to quote Human Rights Watch:

Our research shows that blacks comprise 62.7 percent and whites 36.7 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prison, even though federal surveys and other data detailed in this report show clearly that this racial disparity bears scant relation to racial differences in drug offending. There are, for example, five times more white drug users than black. Relative to population, black men are admitted to state prison on drug charges at a rate that is 13.4 times greater than that of white men. In large part because of the extraordinary racial disparities in incarceration for drug offenses, blacks are incarcerated for all offenses at 8.2 times the rate of whites. One in every 20 black men over the age of 18 in the United States is in state or federal prison, compared to one in 180 white men.


So you see, law enforcement in the United States is, as it always has been, biased against people who are not white. The letter of the law may make no distiction between the 'races', but the police, while enforcing the law (selectively) do. Drug use is just as rampant amoung whites in America as it is amoung blakcs; but the police in white neighborhoods don't stop and frisk people for no reason as they do in minority neighborhoods. And when drugs are found on whites the police just tell the offenders to throw the drugs into the bush or into the garbage.

In synopsis, when the playing field is level, we can terminate affirmative action.

Thank You.

P.S. For further enlightenment: HRW

	06-05-2002 00:51									#30
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Police forces are largest in the cities. Cities are dominated by minority groups, including African Americans.

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