08-05-2002 18:16									#91
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Its not impossible, but body armour is not customarily worn by your traditional class of crook.

	08-05-2002 18:24									#92
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Its not impossible, but body armour is not customarily worn by your traditional class of crook.

I advise the free selling of rockets and tanks to be able to defend yourself against this kind of bandits.
Remember, when tanks are outlawed, only outlaws have tanks !

	08-05-2002 18:28									#93
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If you remember the incident in LA with the armoured bank robbers, you might have thought it appropriate for the police to have had a tank on that day.

On second thought, given their accuracy with the weapons they had maybe not

	08-05-2002 18:32									#94
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH If you remember the incident in LA with the armoured bank robbers, you might have thought it appropriate for the police to have had a tank on that day. On second thought, given their accuracy with the weapons they had maybe not

Ah, I don't remember anything about it, but it seems that outlaws outgunned the police.

Ok, I suppose it's time to start selling Apache.
If you are attacked by tanks in street, what you would do ? Call the police ?


No, by the time the police come, you're dead meat. If everyone had a Apache fully loaded with rockets, outlaws would think twice before robbering people with tanks !

Remember, when Apaches fully loaded with rockets are outlawed, only outlaws has Apaches fully loaded with rockets.

	08-05-2002 18:40									#95
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Hehe, jop and everyone needs a nuclear handgranate alla Starship Troppers to defend himself against ruthless insects

	08-05-2002 21:00									#96
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Were you refering to the war of northern aggression?

I call it the War of Southern Stupidity.



Oh, and Sikander --- is it your usual tactic to simply call all arguments that you disagree with, as merely based on propaganda??

	08-05-2002 21:12									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Gun regulations are symptoms of failed law enforcement efforts.

Oh, is that so? Got any evidence to back it up?

	08-05-2002 21:34									#98
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I call it the War of Southern Stupidity.

While you're safe in Iowa you may call it what you wish. If you ever visit the south I wouldn't suggest you refer to it in that way. Not everyone is as open minded as I.

	08-05-2002 21:40									#99
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As long as you promise not to call it the War of Northern Aggression when you come up here. If you do, you'll find out just how aggressive we can get.

	08-05-2002 23:59									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Beg pardon? It's late and I can't be arsed to read through this whole thread...

I meant using your Dr. Hook ability...

	09-05-2002 06:01									#101
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH While you're safe in Iowa you may call it what you wish. If you ever visit the south I wouldn't suggest you refer to it in that way. Not everyone is as open minded as I.

I have a radical idea --- why not mutually respect each other by calling it for what it was -- a Civil War.

I don't see how the more neutral Civil War title is insulting to Southerners.

But if Southerners want to continue insulting Northerners by calling it the War of Northern Agression, I might have to stick with mine -- the War of Southern Stupidity.

	09-05-2002 06:41									#102
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A civil war is within one country. The south had seceded therefore whatever you call it, by definition, it wasnt a civil war.

	09-05-2002 06:56									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Since handguns are owned for self-defence the use of AP ammunition is obvious. What if the criminal that atacks you wears some sort of Armor?

He will still be thrown to the ground and you can get away. But that's not enough for the gun nuts. You have a hunger to kill the alleged attacker, don't you?

	09-05-2002 06:59									#104
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH A civil war is within one country. The south had seceded therefore whatever you call it, by definition, it wasnt a civil war.

The South had seceded in its own mind. To the rest of the world it was still part of the U.S.

	09-05-2002 08:15									#105
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quote: Originally posted by GP I meant using your Dr. Hook ability...

Ahhh, yes, I see. Step right up folks... a number of you could desperately use some humbling.

	09-05-2002 08:19									#106
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How about the "War of the States" or the "War Between the States"? Settled? Good.

	09-05-2002 08:54									#107
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Civil War. The South was not a separate country, as secession was illegal. I would actually call it the Southern Rebellion.

	09-05-2002 11:06									#108
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH A civil war is within one country. The south had seceded therefore whatever you call it, by definition, it wasnt a civil war.

You Southerners have a strange, twisted, sense of humor that I have yet to learn to appreciate.


The War of Southern Stupidity was a civil war. The Confederacy was an illegal establishment of a new nation, thus, it was not legitimate in the first place.

	09-05-2002 11:10									#109
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quote: You Southerners have a strange, twisted, sense of humor that I have yet to learn to appreciate.

you'll learn to love us, sirh

	09-05-2002 11:19									#110
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The Confederacy was an illegal establishment of a new nation, thus, it was not legitimate in the first place.

There was a law against secession?

	09-05-2002 11:24									#111
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Just because there were Southern leaders who whined that they could not get their way within the legitimacy of a majoritarian government, does not justify secession.

There was no explicit law against it --- but just as there is no written law against murder, it is still illegal.

	09-05-2002 11:33									#112
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There was no explicit law against it --- but just as there is no written law against murder, it is still illegal.

I was under the impression that "illegal" literally means that "there is a written law against it." F'rinstance, last time I checked, murder was illegal because there was a written law against it.

	09-05-2002 12:13									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Oh, is that so? Got any evidence to back it up?

Take a look at places where the gun laws are strictest in the U.S. (hint: They are large urban areas and states which include a high proportion of their population in large urban areas), and then note their crime rates. There is a very obvious connection to the two stats. That connection is that strict gun laws have been passed in many of the most dangerous parts of the country as a reaction to their high murder rates. Conversely much of the country has less strict gun laws, more guns and less crime. I rate the reactive factor (momentum for gun restrictions based upon high crime rates) as more important than the reluctance of criminals to do their business where their victims are more likely to be armed, though I think both factors are in play.

	09-05-2002 12:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Oh, and Sikander --- is it your usual tactic to simply call all arguments that you disagree with, as merely based on propaganda??

If you make a stupid argument, I'll call you on it. If you lie, I'll call you on that. If you base your opinion on an orchestrated campaign to whip up political support on an issue that is at best completely tangential and unimportant (but sounds good) then I will call you a victim of propoganda. Is it your usual tactic to claim that someone you disagree with is using tactics rather than arguing genuinely?

	09-05-2002 12:39									#115
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The point is not whether rifle ammunition can penetrate a bullet proof vest, but whether there are legitimate uses for AP ammunition for handguns. I really cant think of any (many). The answer to Schumer and his ilk, is for the NRA to request that the manufacturers stop making such ammunition. It pulls Schumers horns and may save the life of a few policemen.

I haven't ever seen AP ammo made for handguns (in fact just the opposite with non-penetrating rounds popular for home defense), though of course that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The vast majority that I have seen was military surplus ammo, and it isn't all that useful for hunting to be sure. The only reasons I could see in making it for handguns are:

1) To give someone the capability of taking on armored foes with a handgun. Which begs the question, why aren't you arming properly for this in the first place?

2) To give outfitters / guides / others who work outdoors in Alaska a capability to defend themselves and their clients from grizzlies, kodiaks and polar bears without having them have to haul a rifle or one of those super-magnum handguns around.

These uses are so limited that they only appear significant in comparison to the complete lack of a problem with AP ammunition in the first place. My problem with this whole episode is the disingenuineness with which it was created by the strident anti-gun lobby. Aren't they supposed to have a real issue to champion? If so, then they shouldn't have any need to create a smear campaign against their own straw man.

	09-05-2002 13:04									#116
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Sikander,

I'm intrigued with the Alaska guide comment. Could see how a side hostlered handgun might be convenient. I recently turned down a guiding job offer (no discussion of firearms though.)

Would a .45 (standard military side arm) be sufficient to deal with a bear? They have a heck of a kick. Way more than a 9 mm. I never saw a round in a person, but remember in training hearing that the .45 can blow limbs off. (is that true?) The bullet is honking big. Lots thicker than M-16 round.

	09-05-2002 13:08									#117
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Interesteing side note. Submarines that surface at the Pole have to pst a rifle watch for polar bears. They roam the ice all over. And have not free or hesitancy to attack humans. None of that silly stuff about needing ot learn to be man killers. They see a man as the easy food that he is. We used an M-14 (didn't have M-16 on my boat.)

Buddy of mine said that they had to kill 5 bears in a little over a day at one location. They decided to move the sub at that point.

	09-05-2002 14:06									#118
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Oh, and Sikander --- is it your usual tactic to simply call all arguments that you disagree with, as merely based on propaganda??

Are you implying that there are people here who don't do that?

	09-05-2002 14:44									#119
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quote: Originally posted by GP Sikander, I'm intrigued with the Alaska guide comment. Could see how a side hostlered handgun might be convenient. I recently turned down a guiding job offer (no discussion of firearms though.) Would a .45 (standard military side arm) be sufficient to deal with a bear? They have a heck of a kick. Way more than a 9 mm. I never saw a round in a person, but remember in training hearing that the .45 can blow limbs off. (is that true?) The bullet is honking big. Lots thicker than M-16 round.

GP,

I wouldn't use a .45, though I'm sure someone has taken down a bear with one. It's a fat round with not a lot of velocity, which makes it a poor penetrator on an animal the size of a bear. It kills and stops humans very effectively through shock, but again this is greatly diminished on large bears. The pistols and (mostly) revolvers I have seen with this idea in mind are truly huge near wildcats type cartridges, many of them 50+ caliber. Check out Guns and Ammo (IIRC they have a web site), they have one of these monsters highlighted every second or third issue.

If you think the .45 has a kick, try one of these things sometime. I don't have a problem personally with the kick of a .45, but I admit that I wouldn't be jumping at the chance to shoot one of these supermags. Ouch! As for the .45 shooting off arms and such, I can't say that I have heard this. My uncle killed a Japanese soldier with a .45 during WWII, and he was impressed with it's instant lethality (he still has one). IIRC the .45 is the second most effective round at stopping someone with one shot (91%) to the newer .40 S&W. (marginally better)

	09-05-2002 14:53									#120
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Thanks.

It's not like I can't handle the kick. But I definitely have to shoot the weapon with both hands. And it moves upwards dramatically after shooting. (Seems like this happens to everybody. at least form watching at firing range.)

9 mm is really different. It's like "tink, tink, tink".