06-05-2002 22:01									#31
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quote: Political assassinations seem to be quite at home on the European continent, even given a cursory look at history. So, I don't really know where the claim that it is either alien to the European experience or "American style" comes into play.

Political assasinations are totally alien in Holland. Name one political assasination in the decade. I can't think of one.

	06-05-2002 22:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus They don't. and this isn't the time to troll

Interesting. How often do you follow this advice Marcus?

	06-05-2002 22:03									#33
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kass,
Like Stefu implied, he was gay, anti-muslim, very right-wing and often (wrongly) accused of being a racist...

Enough to create a lot of political and other enemies (including yours truly)...

	06-05-2002 22:03									#34
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AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Right-wing Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was shot in the head Monday and seriously wounded, Dutch Radio said.


Police in Hilversum, where the attack reportedly took place, said they had no immediate information and could not confirm the report.

He was founder of Leefbaar Nederland (Livable Netherlands), which stunned the Netherlands in March when it won 35 percent of the vote for city council seats in Rotterdam, the second-largest city.

Fortuyn advocates a ban on immigration and has criticized Islam as a "backward culture." Although he no longer leads the party, polls project that it could win 24 seats in the 150-member parliament in May 15 national elections.

The radio said Fortuyn (pronounced fore-TOWN)was shot at least three times in the head but was still alive. Ambulance was seen at the Hilversum Media Park, where the Dutch national broadcasting company is based. Hilversum is about 10 miles southeast of Amsterdam.

The reported attack against Fortuyn, 53, came nine days before national elections. Opinion polls predicted the flamboyant politician, campaigning on an anti-immigrant platform, would lead one of the largest parties in parliament.

The flamboyant, shaven-headed former academic and columnist leads an openly gay lifestyle, supports personal liberties, and has laid claim to leadership of Holland's perennially vacant political right.

Fortuyn as dictated debate with verbal attacks on the country's growing Muslim population and with an indictment of the shortcomings of what many other Europeans see as one of the most successful countries on the continent.

	06-05-2002 22:04									#35
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hell, it may even have been a rightwinger who was angry cause Fortuyn was moving more towards the cente.

	06-05-2002 22:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I'm even considering voting on his party to show my respect, if I'm going to vote at all after this.

Seriously, that makes no sense at all. And about the death of fortuyn, I feel completely indifferent about it really...

	06-05-2002 22:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Political assasinations are totally alien in Holland. Name one political assasination in the decade. I can't think of one.

In Holland? The closest I can come up with is an incident in 1977.

	06-05-2002 22:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I agree with Boris Godunov and Locutus. I hated his guts, but this is way too much. I'm even considering voting on his party to show my respect, if I'm going to vote at all after this.

Umm, bad idea. A vote is too precious a thing to be given out of condolences. If you think the party would lead the country in the wrong direction and ultimately hurt people, what then would your vote have accomplished?

	06-05-2002 22:08									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Umm, bad idea. A vote is too precious a thing to be given out of condolences. If you think the party would lead the country in the wrong direction and ultimately hurt people, what then would your vote have accomplished?

reason why the US system is good

we never do anything quickly

(aren't you glad you live here)

it takes a lot more to mess us up

Jon Miller

	06-05-2002 22:09									#40
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quote: The closest I can come up with is an incident in 1977.

Before I was born even. So I'd say it's totally alien here in Holland, and only the things you see in other countries and on TV.

quote: Umm, bad idea. A vote is too precious a thing to be given out of condolences. If you think the party would lead the country in the wrong direction and ultimately hurt people, what then would your vote have accomplished?

I'm probably not going to vote at all. I have to see how what happeneds in the next few days.

	06-05-2002 22:10									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Even Janmaat wasn't shot at....it's a bit too easy to place to blame on Melkert and De Graaf.

Melkert: "Nederland, word wakker!" (Wake up!), as if Fortuyn were some sort of Nazi rather than the leader of just another political party.

De Graaf: mentioning Anne Frank, as if Fortuyn were some sort of Nazi rather than the leader of just another political party.

-

	06-05-2002 22:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus kass, Like Stefu implied, he was gay, anti-muslim, very right-wing and often (wrongly) accused of being a racist...

Gay *and* right-wing? An incomprehensible combination, if you ask me.

	06-05-2002 22:11									#43
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Man, you really need to vote. Again, seriously.

	06-05-2002 22:11									#44
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in the last interview he gave, a few minutes before the shooting, Fortuyn promised he'd live to see his 87th birthday.

	06-05-2002 22:12									#45
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It has not happened in the US recently either (there was in attempt on Reagan though)

Jon Miller

	06-05-2002 22:13									#46
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According to 'RTL' Fortuyn is currently being transported via trauma helicopter, so apparently still alive. According to 'NOS' and 'SBS' he's (almost certainly) dead though...

Kass,
Don't forget this is the Netherlands. Right-wingers here would be considered commies in the US

	06-05-2002 22:14									#47
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Oldenbarnevelt: worse things were said about Janmaat, and he still lives.

quote: Gay *and* right-wing? An incomprehensible combination, if you ask me.

why? In Holland, right wingers aren't conservative.

quote: Man, you really need to vote. Again, seriously.

Do you think the elections and their results even make sense now?

	06-05-2002 22:15									#48
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quote: It has not happened in the US recently either (there was in attempt on Reagan though)

How about Bush sr? I thought the Iraqis tried to assasinate him.

	06-05-2002 22:16									#49
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They're talking about postponing the elections now. Nobody knows what to do, this is competely unprecedented in Dutch history...

	06-05-2002 22:17									#50
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This is all too bizarre

	06-05-2002 22:18									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus why? In Holland, right wingers aren't conservative.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Kass, Don't forget this is the Netherlands. Right-wingers here would be considered commies in the US

*a skyscraper-sized doh*

	06-05-2002 22:22									#52
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Hm. This might lead for his party to get even more votes, you know. They'll get some chap running under "I'm like Pim Fortuyn" theme. It might not even all be just sympathy vote - if the shooter was Moslem, it might convince many people that Moslems are evil terrorists. But who'll they run?

Does Pim have a wife partner?

	06-05-2002 22:26									#53
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Is this the bald guy? If so, I might actually know who the hell we're talking about...

	06-05-2002 22:28									#54
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quote: Is this the bald guy? If so, I might actually know who the hell we're talking about...

Here you go...

	06-05-2002 22:29									#55
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no, Fortuyn is single

And yeah, it's the bald one.

	06-05-2002 22:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus They're talking about postponing the elections now. Nobody knows what to do, this is competely unprecedented in Dutch history...

In 1584, Balthasar Gerards killed William the Silent, Prince of Orange.
In 1619, Maurits, Prince of Orange, had Oldenbarnevelt beheaded. A political murder under a thin legal varnish.
In 1672, the Orangist rabble killed brothers Jan and Cornelis de Witt.

I know of no political murders after that...

-

	06-05-2002 22:33									#57
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Yep, that's the guy I was thinking of. I read an article about him a while ago and from what I gathered, he wasn't a very popular figure. Tragic, but not very suprising.

	06-05-2002 22:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus no, Fortuyn is single

Actually, I *think* he had a partner but he remained very much in the background, protected from the public (like most other significant others of Dutch politicians)...

Oldebarnevelt,
True, 1977 was a Molukse train hijacking. Basically it had very little to do with the Netherlands at all...

	06-05-2002 22:35									#59
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for an unpopular guy, he sure did get a lot of votes, he would've had the 3rd political party in holland, oh, and we got like 15 of them, not 2 like in the US, so 3rd is pretty good

	06-05-2002 22:37									#60
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Horrible news! National Danish television had a special report about P.F just yesterday where he was presented as a serious alternative politician and from a very positive journalistic angle. They commented that he very rarely walked the streets of the city for some reason... he probably was aware of his enemies. A terrible day for democracy and The Netherlands.