07-05-2002 02:13									#121
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thanks locutus and oldenbarnevelt for the info on killer(s)

	07-05-2002 02:24									#122
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I find it absolutely terrible.
I'm am rather "left", politically, and generally didn't agree with what he said, although he did say some seriously good things too. He was a moderate right-wing, mostly populist politician...

I do not agree with the views that the other parties or the media are somehow responsible for this. Whoever did this was a someone with a severely ****ed up mind.
My first thoughts are that the killer is an extreme leftist, unfortunately, probably somewhat like those people who go to anti-globalisation demonstrations purely to make a mess.

What I'm afraid of now is that his death will cause all sorts of riots, partly directed against the parties that were most against him. Perhaps even more, an equally ****ed up mind decides one of their leaders has to pay for it and decides to kill one of them.

The party leaders, by the way, have decided to stop the election campaigns. The ministers are still discussing whether to postpone the elections altogether.
I'm not sure whether they should... I think we certainly need a little time to get back to our senses.

	07-05-2002 02:26									#123
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Ah yes... the reason why a person like Janmaat wasn't shot, is basically because his party was generally rather laughable and never looked like having any influence whatsoever. Pim Fortuyn led a party that was going to caue a major landslide... I think I saw a newspaper that said the latest polls indicated he would be the biggest party.

	07-05-2002 02:33									#124
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Would the US equivalent of this be the attempted assassination of George Wallace?

Mercator:

quote: I do not agree with the views that the other parties or the media are somehow responsible for this.

IIRC, in one of the hate crimes threads some posters argued that right-wing politicians were somehow responsible becuase they created an atmosphere in which such crimes were tolerated or accepted if not actively encouraged. Does the same apply here, with the shoe on the other foot?

(I dont buy the argument in either case)

	07-05-2002 02:34									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus right wing doesn't mean anti-gay

An anti-gay person would be considered right-wing though. It's probably more accurate to say that there is no contradiction between being left-wing on some issues and right-wing on some, it's all about power distribution anyway.

	07-05-2002 02:35									#126
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Saint Marcus, Let me extend my sympathies to you and the Dutch people. Regardless of whether you agreed with Mr. Fortuyn, assassination has no place in democracies. We lost two Kennedies in recent memory, and had attempts on Wallace, Ford Reagan and Bush Sr. If one counts attempts to crash planes into the White House, attempts were also made on Clinton and our current president.

What really surprises me though is the rioting at the Hague. Whenever something like this has happened in the U.S. the nation pulled together. We seemed to recognize that the gunman was a lunatic acting alone, except in the case of Saddam trying to kill Bush. The implications of the rioting is that the Fortuyn supporters suspect that this was not simply the act of a single derranged individual. Now that is disturbing.

Ned

Last edited by Ned on 07-05-2002 at 03:09

	07-05-2002 02:38									#127
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Thank you Ned


To explain the rioting. Pim Fortuyn's party is a political outcast. Fortuyn wasn't a universally loved Kennedy. Fortuyn had his enemies, and his followers hold his enemies, all of them, resonsable. That includes the media and other political parties. Very sad indeed

	07-05-2002 02:43									#128
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About the gay/right wing thing. He's not an US rightwing politician, who are almost exclusively christian conservative. He was more Libertarian if anything.

	07-05-2002 02:44									#129
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Libertarians are right wing here. (pro free trade, pro tax cuts, against social security, etc)

christian conservatives are centre. (pro christian values, pro social security, against the 24 hour economy)

different from the states

	07-05-2002 02:47									#130
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quote: IIRC, in one of the hate crimes threads some posters argued that right-wing politicians were somehow responsible becuase they created an atmosphere in which such crimes were tolerated or accepted if not actively encouraged. Does the same apply here, with the shoe on the other foot?

Hardly. Although actually Pim Fortuyn himself said a while ago that the other parties would be responsible if something happened to him.
But I don't think people are really rioting because of the current government and how they might have caused this because of wrong policies or something.
I think they're mostly just upset, think the leaders of the other parties and the media have treated him badly (by comparing him to extreme right-wingers, or simply arguing with him and not liking him) since the campaigns started...

And more about the riots. There are lots of people going to his house with flowers etc. or to the city hall of Rotterdam to sign the condolence register, and there are no problems there whatsoever.
AFAIK, the problems are limited to The Hague, and I've heard there were quite a few fans of "ADO Den Haag" among them. A footbal club renowned for their... erm... badly behaving fans, to put it mildly. So it may be most of these misbehaving people are just out there to cause some trouble for fun.

	07-05-2002 02:47									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase An anti-gay person would be considered right-wing though.

This would imply that Castro, Mugabe, and generally most Third World socialists and communists (and many in the Western world) are right-wing.

quote: It's probably more accurate to say that there is no contradiction between being left-wing on some issues and right-wing on some, it's all about power distribution anyway.

You ignore the fact that Fortuyn's homosexuality was never an issue in the political debate. Fortuyn never made even one concession on this subject, because no one asked him to do so.
The Netherlands is not your country with some minor differences -- it's a country with a history of its own, similar to your country in some respects, very different in others.

-

	07-05-2002 02:51									#132
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quote: Fortuyn wasn't a universally loved Kennedy.

Well, his party was rather popular. But he really was known to the general public only for the last 3 months or so, when he made some questionable statements in a newspaper interview, was thrown out of his party and created his own.

	07-05-2002 02:52									#133
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I didn't think Kennedy was loved until after he was dead

Jon Miller

	07-05-2002 02:54									#134
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That doesn't apply to Schleyer though

	07-05-2002 02:58									#135
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my new avatar, until after the elections. thanks Mercator.

	07-05-2002 03:01									#136
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So you really want to vote for Fortuyn Party, just because he is dead?

	07-05-2002 03:07									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus my new avatar, until after the elections. thanks Mercator.

I second that

	07-05-2002 03:10									#138
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quote: So you really want to vote for Fortuyn Party, just because he is dead?

I might have considered it really... But then, I can't vote anyway, so I don't have to worry about it.

	07-05-2002 03:10									#139
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it might all be made up by them just in order to increase votes for them

I don't see how those guys can vote for a right-winger party. And a xenophobe one as such, what a shame.

	07-05-2002 03:15									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt This would imply that Castro, Mugabe, and generally most Third World socialists and communists (and many in the Western world) are right-wing.

I would consider this to be the case, yes. Almost every succesful "communist" regime has been right-wing on every issue except working class power, and even there most cases are highly suspect.

quote: The Netherlands is not your country with some minor differences -- it's a country with a history of its own, similar to your country in some respects, very different in others.

I refuse to accept that politics is not something universial. "Oooh, we're a country of our own, multi-culturalism is alien to us!" sounds supspiciously like the kind of argument Mugabe would use to punish adulterers or America to hang people.

	07-05-2002 03:30									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator (...) he made some questionable statements in a newspaper interview, was thrown out of his party and created his own.

Some information for non-Dutch readers.
In the interview, Fortuyn declared that he wanted to do away with the "ridiculous" article 1 of the Dutch constitution, the so-called anti-discrimination article. His political opponents Melkert and De Graaf (and to a lesser extent Rosenmöller) seized the opportunity to make it seem as if Fortuyn wanted to make light of racial and other discrimination. However, his point was that articles 1 and 7 (about the freedom of religion) were mutually contradictory: the right to make derogatory remarks about homosexuals was defended by some Muslims and Christians referring to article 7. Fortuyn rightly didn't have much respect for an anti-discrimination article which could easily be evaded in the case of discrimination of homosexuals by religious bigots.
Article 1 is very new, it was introduced in our constitution as late as 1984 or so. It is, of course, not part of our criminal code. If article 1 was cancelled it would only be missed as a symbol; in practice, charges of racial or other discrimination are dealt with in our penal laws.
Now, the same Melkert and De Graaf said they are in favour of postponing the elections. Why doesn't that surprise me?

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	07-05-2002 03:41									#142
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quote: my new avatar, until after the elections. thanks Mercator.

I don't think I've ever felt so Dutch before...

quote: I don't see how those guys can vote for a right-winger party. And a xenophobe one as such, what a shame.

He's not quite a xenophobe. He wants to close borders, yes, but mostly to give our country the opportunity with the problems that the current immigrants are given us now. Not necessarily crime, but just the general issues immigrants bring about.
This by the way, was his view on more issues. He also wanted to halt the amount of money going to health care, first reorganise it, then see about how to improve it more.
Additionally, he recently said he wanted to "pardon" immigrants, that is, accept those that have been in Holland for a long time, while still not being accepted according to immigrational procedures... Maybe just a populistic statement to get votes, but at least he stood for it, and far beyond anything the Liberals and Christian Democrats had in mind.

	07-05-2002 03:45									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase I refuse to accept that politics is not something universial. "Oooh, we're a country of our own, multi-culturalism is alien to us!" sounds supspiciously like the kind of argument Mugabe would use to punish adulterers or America to hang people.

I am not very fond of the debating trick of asking one's opponent to define their terms all the time, but in this case I would really like to know what you mean by "multi-culturalism". I have no problem with multi-ethnicity. If by multi-culturalism you simply mean multi-ethnicity, you'd better use the correct word. However, if you mean that because of mass immigration of Muslims, my country should compromise on matters like democracy, secularism, freedom of speech, equality of men and women, I simply don't agree.

The opera Aisha, to be staged in our largest cities, was cancelled because of objections and threats by Muslims. I think that's a bloody shame.

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	07-05-2002 03:46									#144
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I'm a little late, but it's time for me to contribute my usual smart-ass troll:

Gee, I guess Holland needs gun control, huh?

	07-05-2002 03:50									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt The opera Aisha, to be staged in our largest cities, was cancelled because of objections and threats by Muslims. I think that's a bloody shame. -

What is he opera about so that we can understand the issue better?

Ned

	07-05-2002 03:56									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt I am not very fond of the debating trick of asking one's opponent to define their terms all the time, but in this case I would really like to know what you mean by "multi-culturalism". I have no problem with multi-ethnicity. If by multi-culturalism you simply mean multi-ethnicity, you'd better use the correct word. However, if you mean that because of mass immigration of Muslims, my country should compromise on matters like democracy, secularism, freedom of speech, equality of men and women, I simply don't agree. The opera Aisha, to be staged in our largest cities, was cancelled because of objections and threats by Muslims. I think that's a bloody shame.

As I see it, the dominant culture in a society weilds a lot of power. By "Multi-culturalism", I mean that power in society should be shared between different cultures. There is absolutely nothing in the idea that'll stop basic constitutional provisions for freedom.

Naw, what you're blathering is a variant ot the "They'll come here and have goats in their living rooms and rape our women" anti-immigrant scaremongering, which is what right-wing populists usually thrive on. Write up the ridiculously unfounded fear of foreigners and you've got yourself a voter base of ignorami.

	07-05-2002 03:57									#147
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quote: and there have been a good number of political assasination attempts in the states.

King, Kennedy (two), Reagan (attempt), Wallace.... That's 5 in the last century. Do you know of any others in the last 100 years?

quote: I would consider this to be the case, yes. Almost every succesful "communist" regime has been right-wing on every issue except working class power, and even there most cases are highly suspect.

You are like Bezerker, only reversed who everyone else is.

--

Democracy is not solved by guns and blood, but votes. Unfortunetly some idiot in the Netherlands didn't think so.

	07-05-2002 03:57									#148
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I presume you mean Aida, Oldenbarnevelt? Which hopefully also answers your question, Ned.

*EDIT*

Last edited by Mercator on 07-05-2002 at 04:17

	07-05-2002 03:58									#149
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quote: I second that

quote: don't think I've ever felt so Dutch before...

Indeed

Pim Fortuyn, 6 May 2002, we will never forget.

	07-05-2002 04:01									#150
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quote: King, Kennedy (two), Reagan (attempt), Wallace.... That's 5 in the last century. Do you know of any others in the last 100 years?

Bush sr by the Iraqis.

And Bush jr (wasn't the last plane meant to hit the white house?)

Martin Luther King, though he wasn't a politician, his movement did had political influence. Same, in a lesser degree, Malcom X.