06-05-2002 22:39									#61
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quote: I know of no political murders after that...

I think you're right...the 1977 case was a kidnapping. Not sure if a politician was actually killed though.

	06-05-2002 22:40									#62
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it's on CNN now

	06-05-2002 22:42									#63
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they found the alleged killer. well, at least a guy with a gun near the place of the killing.

	06-05-2002 22:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I think you're right...the 1977 case was a kidnapping. Not sure if a politician was actually killed though.

As you know, some people were killed by Moluccan hijackers and these murders were politically motivated, but the victims themselves were not politicians.

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	06-05-2002 22:46									#65
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He didn't by any chance happen to be in a movie theatre, did he?

-Arrian

	06-05-2002 22:47									#66
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Voting matters now more than ever, Saint Marcus.

	06-05-2002 22:52									#67
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quote: As you know, some people were killed by Moluccan hijackers and these murders were politically motivated, but the victims themselves were not politicians.

I thought there were some politicians there. I'm probably wrong about that though.

quote: Voting matters now more than ever, Saint Marcus.

I don't see why. 9 days after this tradegy the political scene will still be a mess. I expect some very bizarre outcomes, that make no sense at all.

	06-05-2002 23:00									#68
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quote: Originally posted by kassiopeia Gay *and* right-wing? An incomprehensible combination, if you ask me.

One's sexuality doesn't determine one's political affiliations. Many people grow up in conservative environments and adopt conservative ideologies before discovering their sexuality.

Also, in Europe, and particularly the Netherlands, being conservative doesn't mean being anti-gay like it generally does in the U.S. and more conservative countries.

I know several gay republicans. In fact, I've had a notorious streak of having Log Cabiners (What they call Gay Republicans in the US) wanting to date me. Eww.

	06-05-2002 23:02									#69
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Boris Godunov: I'm sure they don't, but what made me wonder was a homosexual reaching a prominent political position in a far right party. Besides, can a gay really belong in a party that would strip him his rights / deny him from them?

	06-05-2002 23:06									#70
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This is sick.

BTW, I think Lijst-Pim Fortuijn will get more votes now. (because of sympathy for Pim and because public safety was one of his main issues...)
I don't think they will disband. (if only because that's what the shooter would have wanted and it will encourage other potential shooters).

About postponing the elections: are they allowed to do that by the constitution?

Does anyone here know what is usually done when the name of someone who has died is already on all the voting ballots for next week? :/
Surely they won't allow people to vote for Pim himself?

Anyway, I'm not going to change my vote because of this.

	06-05-2002 23:10									#71
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Didn't they have that case of dead senate candidate in US Senate election? In that case, they kept the name of the candidate in ballot, and people voted for the dead guy knowing that someone else would be appointed if the dead guy won.

It might be most auspicious for Pim Fortuyn's party if they kept his name on ballot. After all, people will rather vote for Pim Fortuyn's memory than some second-rate guy they've never likely even heard of.

Yaargh, just remembered - this is parliametary election, isn't it? Do Dutch use long lists or vote for individual? In latter case, they'll probably remove his name.

	06-05-2002 23:12									#72
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They let the people vote for you, then put your wife (or partner, in this case) into office for you. Just ask Missouri...

edit: Damn Finn beat me to it...

	06-05-2002 23:14									#73
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quote: Besides, can a gay really belong in a party that would strip him his rights / deny him from them?

Right wing parties here are pro-gay-rights.

quote: Do Dutch use long lists or vote for individual? In latter case, they'll probably remove his name.

Both. But if one person gets more votes than he needs for one seat, the rest of the votes go to the next party member.

	06-05-2002 23:15									#74
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Kassiopeia, the gay struggle for civil rights is over in The Netherlands and Fortuyn's party never sought to change the situation. As a matter of fact, he explained on occasions that his dislike of Muslims was partly due to the fact they condemn him for his sexuality and would like to strip him of his rights. He was for the legalization of soft drugs as well, which isn't what you'd normally associate with the right wing and he seemed somewhat nicer than his neighbouring counterparts in Vlaams Blok, Front National etc. I vote socialist but I must admit I actually got some sympathy for the man after seeing the previously mentioned TV clip.

	06-05-2002 23:17									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dr.Oogkloot This is sick. BTW, I think Lijst-Pim Fortuijn will get more votes now. (because of sympathy for Pim and because public safety was one of his main issues...) I don't think they will disband.

Ironically, the weakest point of Fortuyn's party was that it was in fact no more than an appendix to his leadership and his personal opinions. It was hard to picture this party without Fortuyn as a leader.
Again ironically, chances that the party will survive for longer than four years have increased now that they will enter the Dutch parliament with 30+ representatives (edit: out of 150) and a new leader, who will be much more like a traditional political leader i.e. someone who is replaceable and has to compete with others in the party.

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	06-05-2002 23:29									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus oh please. "American style shootings" here is what you see in the hollywood movies, and the things happening in the Bronx and South Central LA. And those things are alien here. And they are called "american style" here by everyone. It's not meant as a troll. And if you don't have something usefull to contribute, please piss off.

When was the last political assassination in America? Really mark, for someone who says alot about USA. You seem to know very little. Perhaps its the movie's that give us a bad rep?

	06-05-2002 23:33									#77
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quote: When was the last political assassination in America? Really mark, for someone who says alot about USA. You seem to know very little. Perhaps its the movie's that give us a bad rep?

I said they are "what you see in hollywood movies".

and there have been a good number of political assasination attempts in the states.

also, "american style shooting" is not what I made up (hence the quotation marks) but a translation of what was said by reports on tv.


please read before posting.

	06-05-2002 23:36									#78
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ok ok......ill leave now.

	06-05-2002 23:36									#79
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Let's face it guys... he was a right-winger, and while that's a sad loss of life, the political loss for Europe should be a minor one. Would the outcry be as large if Le Pen had been shot? According to spiegel.de, I conclude they're similar.

I'm not certain however...

	06-05-2002 23:39									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Dr.Oogkloot This is sick. BTW, I think Lijst-Pim Fortuijn will get more votes now. (because of sympathy for Pim and because public safety was one of his main issues...) I don't think they will disband. (if only because that's what the shooter would have wanted and it will encourage other potential shooters). About postponing the elections: are they allowed to do that by the constitution?

Possibly, but how could it be motivated in this case? I am sure the elections won't be postponed.

quote: Does anyone here know what is usually done when the name of someone who has died is already on all the voting ballots for next week? :/ Surely they won't allow people to vote for Pim himself?

As far as I can see, his name will remain on the list of candidates. If he is chosen, another candidate will replace him.

Kieswet Art. P 18a.:

"Blijkt bij toepassing van deze paragraaf dat een overleden kandidaat gekozen zou moeten worden verklaard, dan verklaart het centraal stembureau benoemd de kandidaat die volgens hoofdstuk W plaatsvervanger van de overleden kandidaat is."

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	06-05-2002 23:46									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Let's face it guys... he was a right-winger, and while that's a sad loss of life, the political loss for Europe should be a minor one. Would the outcry be as large if Le Pen had been shot? According to spiegel.de, I conclude they're similar. I'm not certain however...

What do goebbels.de and stasi.de have to say on the matter?

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	06-05-2002 23:53									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I don't see why. 9 days after this tradegy the political scene will still be a mess. I expect some very bizarre outcomes, that make no sense at all.

Not voting makes the least sense of all. Are there no parties amongst all 15 that come even close to approximating your political beliefs?

	06-05-2002 23:53									#83
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didn't check them

So is he a right-winger or not? if so, his popularity doesn't speak well for the population of the Netherlands.

	06-05-2002 23:56									#84
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Well he is, but not in a sense like german right wingers Ecthelion

	06-05-2002 23:57									#85
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He's said to flame foreigners, so I don't even care how he compares to "German right-wingers", whatever you think of when using that term. So what's the Dutch people's excuse for being xenophobe?

	07-05-2002 00:05									#86
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Im orginal german, so I know pretty much about german politics.
When you take CSU for a comparison (which fit better than DVU, NPD, Rep.)

He was on same terms for:
- being anti-muslim
- stop immigration

But very diffrent for:
- soft drug legislation
- gay rights


besides he wasnt really liked that much in the netherlands..

	07-05-2002 00:10									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion didn't check them So is he a right-winger or not? if so, his popularity doesn't speak well for the population of the Netherlands.

Two or three days ago, he broke off an interview with BBC celebrity John Simpson, because he was placed, unjustly and for the umpteenth time, in the same category as Haider, Le Pen, De Winter.
Most journalists are lazy. Life is so much easier when you can place different people in the same category, rather than finding out what they really think. I was not going to vote for Fortuyn, but I hate lazy journalists who mislead the public abroad, people who cannot judge for themselves because they do not read or speak Dutch. Fortuyn was not a racist. He was against mass immigration, against the so-called multi-cultural society if this would bring some sort of compromise between Western and Muslim values, but he was for the emancipation and integration of Dutch citizens of foreign origin. Compare this to Belgian politician Filip De Winter with his slogan "Eigen volk eerst" (lit. own people first), who advocates a policy which discriminates against Belgian citizens of Turkish or Moroccan origin.

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	07-05-2002 00:17									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 When you take CSU for a comparisonHe was on same terms for: - being anti-muslim - stop immigration

CSU stands in for these?

Oldenbarnevelt - I agree

	07-05-2002 00:19									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt He was against...multi-cultural society...

The way I understand the Netherlands, it's all about multiculturalism... what would the very national cultural identity and heritage of the Dutch be like, if not just a mix of German, French, English and especially Spanish () influences?

	07-05-2002 00:27									#90
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A suspect was arrested. He admitted he was the killer.