07-05-2002 05:16									#1
	Community Creative Jam - Magic in Candle'Bre Put an end to popups!

'k....here's a little something I wanted to toss out there.

In the free release, Religion is vastly simplified from what it will be in the commercial release. Although we are mapping out a pantheon of gods for the Candle'Bre world, only one will be represented in the free release, J'honsa, the God of Hardships, and his church (the Castillar family/faction has great power in this church, and in fact, higher rates of church Influence are one of their main abilities).

Currently, magic is highly limited in the game, amounting to all of three spells, all of which reside in the hands of the Wizards.

The three spells currently are:

Divination: Allows scrying/spying on other factions to gain information on force strength, tech levels, treasuries, etc.

Pestilence: Semipermanant with an upkeep. Territories impacted by pestilence are dangerous places to move troops through....each unit moving through such a territory must roll a survival check.

Probability Control: Allows "rerolls" for the armies of the Wizards (boosts kill rate).

****

Eventually, however, we'll be expanding the scope of magic thru the introduction of the rest of the pantheon. Temples will not only provide a happiness effect for the appropriate citizen archetypes, and Influence with the church in general, but also may be sources of mana (alt plan: the land itself - number of territories) may wind up being used to calculate mana rates.

Depending on mana level and your standing with a particular god/goddess from the pantheon, you may be granted X spells that may be cast, mana permitting.

(keep in mind that the above idea is in its roughest form at present, and is subject to change if alternate ideas are presented...that's just to get us started).

So....what are some groovilicious spell ideas?

Here are a few off the top of my head:

Illusory Terrain: Can be cast at a target province to make troops moving into the province subject to certain restrictions (ie - if I use the spell to make the entire province seem forested, then cav will be restricted from using their charge ability....likewise, if I made the entire province seem mountainy, cav would not even be able to enter). Should come with a per turn mana upkeep requirement. Cost unkown. Pantheon association: unknown.

Freak Windstorm: Archer attacks are totally neutralized. Impact: Battle only. Can only be cast at the start of a battle round. No per turn upkeep, lasts X rounds. Cost unknown. Pantheon association: unknown.

Phantasmal Armor: Defensive Battle spell. Select target stack to boost its defense value by +1. Effect lasts for x rounds, and may be cast at the beginning of any combat round. Non-cumulative. Cost unknown. Pantheon Association: Unknown

Force-Blade: Offensive Battle Spell. Select target stack to boost its attack value by +1. Effect lasts for x rounds, and may be cast at the beginning of any combat round. Non-cumulative. Cost unknown. Pantheon Association unknown.

Just a couple of random ideas to get the ball rolling and the wheels spinning.



-=Vel=-

	07-05-2002 05:51									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Mana Focuser and Lesser Wonders

Strikes me that once we get to this stage of the game, we might want to start including some additional funky provincial improvements.

Some of these conjectural improvements could be:

Mana Focuser Increases Mana Generation for the faction by X per turn.

Sage Tower/Oracle Increases Mana Generation for the faction by x per turn and provides a boost to research rate (the x per turn from here would be lesser than the Focuser, since this build provides two effects).

Lesser Wonders
This may be somewhat of a misnomer, since it's not a build per se, but rather a certain configuration of builds....ie - let us say that if you built three mana focusers and two Three Orcales of J'honsa in contiguous territories, you would gain access to some new, rare, and quite powerful spell. Given that there are limits to what you can build and how many builds you can have per province, this would add a new dimension to planning, as you would have to take your other needs into account, and balance those needs with gaining access to some groovy stuff.

Questing We could also draw from Lords of the Realm style games and put scrolls with unique spells or other magic items in various locations. In fact, we could even have an "excavation" option, to "dig" or search for lost relics?

Just some more oddball ideas.

-=Vel=-

	07-05-2002 06:15									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Okey, here goes:

I'm a big feature guy. I love to play with features in a game for hours on end, so I tend to get a little windy when describing what I want in a game. So, simply keep in mind that I fully recognize not all of what I say is practical or even possible: Just a creative excercise.

Vel and I did a lot of discussion about religion in our old forum, and both of us like a comprehensive system where religion is something you can encourage or discourage in your provinces. Basically, the people of Candle'bre are divided amoung about 4 principle gods, and things like temples, priests, and attakcing other religions (by attacking provinces of that religion) would raise or lower your standing with those religions. Each would grant you seperate powers, so you could either dabble in many low level powers by welcoming all religions equally, or become a zealot and only support one, which would give you access to some high-level powers but would restrict your possible choices.

I'm going to move some old posts of mine and Vel's over on religion, but in the mean time please observe the religion map on my sig, just one part of the grand plan that may or may not become part of our game.

As for magic, I am a proponent of making Candle'bre as much a fantasy world as possible within certain limits, so I would love some new and creative approaches to magic from some of the people new to our initiative.

	07-05-2002 06:17									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Transferred from the old forums:

Originally by Cyclotron7:

The way I planned to integrate religion was with a kind of "area of influence" thing. Observe:

Let's say we have two religions, the monotheistic and the polytheistic. For purposes of this example, the monotheistic god is called "Grey" and the Polytheistic gods are called "Red" "Yellow" and "Blue." This also assumed the use of my core rules idea of population units.

Each province leans toward a specific religion at the start of the game. That is, each pop. unit of each province is considered to have one religion. A province with 8 pop units might have 5 followers of Grey, 2 followers of Red, and one follower of Yellow. This province would be a "Grey" province.

The influence system would be divided among all dieties. That is, you could gain Red influence or Grey influence, etc. This represents your control over the specific religion and your popularity among those who practice that religion.

This influence would go up or down depending on certain factors. Donating gold to a religion would increase your influence among them. Attacking a province with a Grey majority, for instance, would cause you to lose Grey influence, but gain a bit of Red, Yellow, and Blue influence. Whenever you build a religious improvement, you must build it for a certain religion, which would increase your influence with one religion while detracting from your influence with others.

Pop units can change their religion. If you have priest pop units active in a province, there is a chance each turn that pop units will convert other faiths to their own (if you make a priest from a red pop unit, it converts others to Red). Also, provinces tend to convert members of nearby provinces to the faith of their majority.

So what does this system give? Well, you would need Red influence to "buy off" an attack coming from a military unit of a certain color (soldiers recruited from a red pop. unit are red themselves). In addition, you could recieve minor abilities like the Wizards' the more influence you had, and gain more mana with more influence. Finally, if you have a lot of influence with a particular religion, your citizens of that religion will gain extra happiness.

This leads to a few different types of playing styles. You can be a real neutral and pander for the support of all religions through careful action and lots of monetary gifts, to try to gain a bit of influence and ability in all areas. Or, you could be a real zealot and make your Yellow influence soar, as to max out on the higher level Yellow powers and give loads of happiness to your yellow citizens (while converting or executing the heathen Greys, barbaric Blues, and infidel Reds under your control!).

Obviously, this is a rather complicated system, but the possibilities are big. No, it's not for the freebie, or any other releases coming soon, but it's a grandiose scheme to get the juices going.

	07-05-2002 06:20									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

More by Cyclotron7:

I think that rather than having groups like the gypsies and Wizards start and end with their "own religion," they should be able to determine what religion they support. The idea would be that, with the exception of the Castillar, each faction would be able to choose their own religious path. To this end, the polytheistic dieties should not be affiliated with any particular faction.

Here is an example of a diety:

OLLUX, god of death and the moon
Ollux, the moon-sovreign, was the first god to be accepted by the people of Candle'bre after the cataclysm. He is the god of death and the afterlife, as well as the moon. He manifests himself not as blind rage, but the cold calculation of ruthlessness and pure fear and terror. Although his supporters view him as a just and wise god with a heavy hand, others loathe and fear him for his connection with night and the terrible Nilrogg, which are suspected to be a manifestation of his terrible wrath.

Buyoff rate: 120% (Not as much influence as the Castillar church, but invading armies fear the influence of his priesthood.)

Relations: Citizens of minority faith in an Ollux controlled province suffer additional unhappiness. Temples of Ollux are 50% less likely to be burned down by the citizens when such a temple is in a province without an Ollux majority (Do YOU want to be the one to get him mad?).

Mana: Low (to counterbalance the low buyoff rate and his powerful bestowed abilities)

Abilities:
10 influence: FAVOR. For 5 mana, you may re-roll one combat dice during your turn.
20: MERCILESSNESS. 7 mana. During your turn, one of your units gains 2 offense, and destroys any units it would normally capture during that turn.
35: FEAR. 6 mana. Causes citizens in a province adjacent to one of your Ollux provinces to gain additional unhappiness for 4 turns.
40: LUNAR LORE. As long as you have more than 40 influence, you may sacrafice honor for mana at a 2 to 1 rate at any time during your turn.
60: TERROR. 10 mana. Like FEAR, but causes greater unhappiness and lasts for 6 turns.
90: LUNACY. 25 mana. A target enemy leader in one of your Ollux provinces is smitter with insanity and is utterly destroyed, and you lose 10 honor. This ability has a 50% chance of working, +10% if a temple is present in the province and plus an additional 20% if a cathedral is present.
130: TERRIBLE MANIFESTATION. 40 mana. Ollux manifests himself in one of your unit stacks as two Nilrogg units, powerful and fast attack units that die if captured and destroy any units they would normally capture. These units last only until the end of this turn. This ability may be used no more than once every turn. The use of this ability causes you to lose 40 honor, and the Castillar have a 100% chance of immediatly declaring war on you.

Originally by Velocryix:
::nodding:: Yep...Like that! And, I think we're pretty much in agreement re: the factions choosing their own religous paths...I think that for the most part, that's exactly what we'll see...but in my mind it made more sense to have the "rival gods" drawn from the cultures of the other groups in the population than from entirely new sources tied to candle'bre's unnatural geography (plus, I'm thinking that the other gods, seeing an opening to increase the size of their flock, would be actively opposed to, and work to stop anybody who might try to start preaching about the "god of Loch Laern").

I think too though, that if we go with these other gods from other cultures, then the Wizards, like Castillar, will be drawn down a particular "path" so to speak. Not that it's a bad thing...it's kinna nice to set them up as polar opposites, actually. (and certain individual provinces - ie Gypsy Home Trentare will be naturally predisposed to a given direction, but factions as a whole will still have enormous leeway....this though, brings up an interesting Quandry, which really adds to the gameplay. Let's say I'm Castillar, and I'm running along just swimmingly with my nice homogenous population, the vast majority of which follow the big dawg god...and I'm digging that.

I have an opportunity to attack, capture, and KEEP the valuable gypsy province of Trentare, but....that poses some interesting problems for me. First, it introduces an unruly population element into my growing empire. An element with radically different beliefs. These people are so free-spirited that there'd be no converting them, really, so if I decide I want the province, and the riches it provides, then I'm gonna have to live with some disruption as well...an interesting balancing act.

Cyclotron7:
I'm glad we seem to agree on how religion would work and such. I am envisioning the following dieties of Candle'bre:

J'Honsa: Monotheistic, starts with provinces of Castillar and most of Fury, as well as much of the northwest, and the King's core provinces.

Kaylar: Poly, starts with the Gypsy provinces and a few of those of the west basin, as well as the south-west rim (think haven) and the eastern fringe provinces.

Ollux: Poly, starts with influence in the Wizard lands, a bit in Mourngrym lands, and the provinces of the southern Crescent Crags (ie. Thunder Hill) and the Snakes' back (southern fringe).

Laernen: Poly, a new god of the lake and prosperity (hey, the lake is a big life-giver), starts with most provinces from the east basin (especially those north of the lake, some south, and at at least one Mourngrym core) and along the Great River's northern and eastern branches (at least until Kaylar's territory).

Some abilities:

J'Honsa abilities:
10: FAVOR. 5 mana. Same as Ollux (all gods have this).
25: BOON. 10 mana. Decreases unhappiness slightly in one of your J'Honsa provinces for 5 turns, and gives all your J'Honsa units there +1 defense on the first turn.
30: DIVINE INSPIRATION. 6 mana. One of your pop. units does double work for one turn. ie, a goldsmith produces twice as much gold, a farmer produces twice as much food, and an ironsmith gets 2 turns of work done in one turn.
40: RENEWAL. 12 mana. One of your J'Honsa units gains full hp immediatly.
60: RIGHTEOUS BLESSING. 25 mana. All your units in one stack gain 2 offense and 2 defense for their next battle. Any non-J'Honsa unit in that stack still recieves the bonus, and has a 20% chance of immediatly converting. This bonus does not apply when they are fighting other J'Honsa units.
85: IMMOLATE. 30 mana. Two units of your choice in any of your J'Honsa provinces are immediatly destroyed. Due to loss of morale, all other units in the afflicted stack lose 1 attck until they leave the province. This penalty does not stack with other castings of IMMOLATE. Any units immune to precision strikes are also immune to this ability.

J'Honsa mana would be normal. They already have vast influence, but their abilties are not the best.

Kaylar abilities:
10: FAVOR. 6 mana.
20: DISTANT STRIDE. 7 mana. One unit gains an extra mp this turn. This spell is not cumulative with itself.
35: REVELRY. 12 mana. One of your Kaylar provinces has its unhappiness reduced for 10 turns, but its income is reduced by 10% for that time. During this time, the province is 50% less likely to be converted.
40: BLENDING VEIL. 15 mana. All units in target stack appear to be the same type of any unit of your choice for 3 turns.
60: ETERNAL STRIDE. 35 mana. As DISTANT STRIDE, but applies to an entire stack and retains this movement to the end of the turn. If the unit does not battle this turn, the spell lasts for an extra turn (and on.. and on... until you fight a battle).
80: SHADOW MIST. 45 mana (most expensive yet!). One of your stacks becomes invisible for one turn. The stack may not attack this turn. All enemy units in ALL PROVINCES have their vision reduced to 1 tile, regardless of their position (on top of a mountain, etc). The vision obstruction part ONLY lasts for 2 turns.

Laernen abilties:

10: FAVOR. 6 mana.
20: FERTILITY. 8 mana. One target tile in one of your Laernen provinces produces triple the normal amount of food for 3 turns.
35: TORRENTIAL STORM. 14 mana. All units in any target province have their movement reduced by one mp for their next turn. Units reduced to 0 mp in this way may move only one tile this turn, regardless of roads or other movement enhancing bonuses.
40: DIVINE HARVEST. As long as you have at least 40 Laernen influence, you may convert mana into food at a ratio of 3 mana to 1 food. This food may be allocated to any of your Laernen provinces, and it takes effect on your next turn.
65: WITHER. 22 mana. A target non-Laernen province adjacent to a Laernen province of your own produces one half normal food during its lord's next turn. Additionally, 1 field at random is turned into plains.
80: GREAT FLOOD. 35 mana. Starting at the beginning of your next turn, and lasting until the beginning of your next turn after that, all units in any target non-Laernen province may not move or take any action. Any units entering the afflicted province are immediatly frozen at the border until the expiration of the spell. Each military unit has a 5% chance of drowning and being destroyed if it is on flat ground (plains, marsh, fields). If this ability is used on any province bordering the Loch, the duration and chance of drowning is doubled.

BUYOFF RATE: 200%

Harbors in Laernen provinces function as if they were temples.

As an additional non-mana ability, all Laernen provinces produce one extra unit of food, and fishermen catch twice as much food when successful.

So, here are general strategies for these 4 dieties:

J'Honsa: Abilities focused around war, with minor happiness and conversion powers. Castillar doesn't really have a choice, but the excellent buyoff rate would be quite useful to the militarily weak Wizards, or make the Seven even more secure. Mourngrym would stand to benefit from the battle abilities, and could use the buyoff in the early game to secure their flanks as they pulverize the Eastern Basin. J'Honsa is designed for a player who likes an upfront, conventional military battle. On the other hand, J'Honsa's abilities are also quite useful for a turtling player who likes to sit back in a strong defensive position while building up forces for the big campaign.

Ollux: Tailored to the player who likes to play havoc with the enemy and doesn't mind infamy if it means victory. Abilities centered on unhappiness and agressive combat make Ollux a good choice for Mourngrym, and give the offensively challenged Seven an option to destabilize the enemy with unhappiness attacks (plus, the seven can use their abundant honor to take full advantage of Lunar Lore). Ollux and the Wizards sounds like a good pair, but in reality the combined loss of honor might be too much for them. The buyoff rate is good enough for a defensive player, and a good strategy with Ollux might be to sequester yourself and gradually weaken the enemy with fear until your Nilrogg-bolstered forces can launch an offensive. The Furies need to watch out in the late game, because Lunacy can easily dispatch their two powerful heroes.

Kaylarr: Abilities all about movement and surprise, with a splash of happiness. The Stride abilities bring Mourngrym's mercs back from the dead in the late game, where they become outmatched in terms of A and D, and Mourngrym can also use Veil to make those plentiful mercs look like cav or archers. The Furies may be perfect with Kaylarr because of the potential for blazingly fast (and invisible) cavalry, but they'll suffer for that choice on the defense side of things and they will have to spend resources shaking that J'Honsa control over their lands in the beginning. The other players aren't as well matched with Kaylarr, but almost any player might want to keep about 25 influence around to take advantage of that great Distant Stride ability. Kaylarr is perfect for surprise attackers and to wage war against superior numbers using mobility and bluffing tactics.

Laernen: The peaceful player can get a lot of benefit and early game rapid growth from Laernen's powers, based on food and flooding with a crippling unconventional attack spell (wither) thrown in. Laernen's abilities are a great counter to the Furies' fast tactics, and Great Flood smashes them in the end game (they can't escape flooding in mountains). The Wizards are close enough to the Loch to use Laernen's powers fully, and they can definitly use the extra food (although the high buyoff rate won't help them any). Any player based around the Loch can play a good defensive game. Think of this interesting tactic: Flooding your own province that's under attack for two turns to tie up their forces and give you time to organize the defense or even make a counterattack. Laernen's abilities make massing large amounts of troops in one province a bad idea, and Wither can be used well in long wars of attrition to corrode the enemy's agricultural base.

	07-05-2002 07:40									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Note, of course, that all of the above are just posts thinking about the future, more comprehensive releases. As it stands in the core rules, religion is represented by influence with the main church (J'Honsa) to simplify matters.

Magic also can be expanded on, but this too is something for later releases.

	07-05-2002 08:15									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It seems like the only kind of magic in the game is channeling, sort of like what clerics have in AD&D. Also, is there any consistency to the spells that the deities grant?

This is a minor point, but I don't see why anybody wants to worship a god of hardship.

	07-05-2002 09:22									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Vel, that illusory terrain spell seems very much overpowered if used in the strategic sense (ie: over a whole province). What would stop the casters from making their border provinces appear as water for example (ie: nobody else can enter) as a defensive measure?
I would suggest using something like that as a tactical battlefield spell only, or possibly on a personal level to cloak spies or help leaders escape from dire situations...

There are a devastating array of possible uses of nature-oriented spells; Increase a provinces fertility/production for a turn for example - battlefield spells too - everything from lightning storms to on-the-job combat terrain-sculpting.

How about "mana-battery" constructions for those turns in which you have mana left over and just can't find anything to do with it. Save it for a rainy day.


Only problem I can forsee though is that the whole thing could become far too magic-dependent. If there are that many possibilities for a relatively small-scale system it magnifies the balancing problem immensely, especially with respect to spell-combinations that devious players could come up with.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This is a minor point, but I don't see why anybody wants to worship a god of hardship.

Perhaps to alleviate some of it?

	07-05-2002 09:42									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good point, Rav....clearly, that particular spell will need some serious tweaking if it ever makes an official part of the game....I could see limiting the illusion to only certain types of terrain (say, hills, forest, mountains), with increasing upfront and maintenance costs for each. Or, perhaps even taking it a step farther.

With regards to the god of hardships.... Actually, I co-opted J'honsa from an oldl AD&D campaign I wrote/created cos he fit in really well with the mythology that surrounds the game....the flight of the refugees from the Nilrogg horde, the abounding hardships they endured to get to their new home, and the rewards for being faithful....that sorta thing...

-=Vel=-

	07-05-2002 09:45									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

As to magic dependency....as I see it, the best way to avoid that is to offer up a wide range of magicks, but make all of them quite expensive to use. In this way, magic would not be seen as a strategy in and of itself, but rather as a valuable enhancement to an existing strategy. Hand in hand with this though, would be the notion that one need not make use of magic at all to excel at the game....after all, while you're building all those expensive mana producers to crank up the magic engine, I'm over yonder, building lots of archers, pike, and cav to come relieve you of them....

-=Vel=-

	07-05-2002 09:55									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'm over yonder, building lots of archers, pike, and cav to come relieve you of them.... -=Vel=-

And good luck to you trying to lead them through the "ocean of fire" to get at me!

	07-05-2002 09:58									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Good point.... That's what's gonna make it really cool, too....if we do it right, and balance everything properly, it'll be anybody's game....and of course, however it shakes out, it'll be so cursedly addictive that we'll just have to play again....

-=Vel=-

	07-05-2002 17:10									#13
	Got spare money?

The religion model proposed look really good - the jury's still out on the magic side for me.

However, it struck me that a number of ideas here are similar to those we came up with for Firaxis to use in Civ3 (which, of course, they then totally ignored). You might like to check out the RELIGION section of The List, situated here, in the archives. Some of the stuff will be utter excrement, of course, but some of the ideas were top notch IIRC.

	07-05-2002 17:17									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Okey, here goes: I'm a big feature guy. I love to play with features in a game for hours on end, so I tend to get a little windy when describing what I want in a game. So, simply keep in mind that I fully recognize not all of what I say is practical or even possible: Just a creative excercise. Vel and I did a lot of discussion about religion in our old forum, and both of us like a comprehensive system where religion is something you can encourage or discourage in your provinces. Basically, the people of Candle'bre are divided amoung about 4 principle gods, and things like temples, priests, and attakcing other religions (by attacking provinces of that religion) would raise or lower your standing with those religions. Each would grant you seperate powers, so you could either dabble in many low level powers by welcoming all religions equally, or become a zealot and only support one, which would give you access to some high-level powers but would restrict your possible choices. I'm going to move some old posts of mine and Vel's over on religion, but in the mean time please observe the religion map on my sig, just one part of the grand plan that may or may not become part of our game. As for magic, I am a proponent of making Candle'bre as much a fantasy world as possible within certain limits, so I would love some new and creative approaches to magic from some of the people new to our initiative.

How about sigils? You could have them as a kind of tile improvement, with say up to three sigils per square. Certain spells can *only* be cast in a sigil containing square - probably defensive or passive bonus type spells, eg. Ward of Warning - pushes back fog of war, Natures Bounty - improves crop production. The sigils would be colour coded to a particular deity, so you could say have one each of three colours for a mild spell from three deities or three of one colour for a more powered up spell from one deity.
The key feature however is a bit like Vel's idea - sigils in adjacent squares will combine. Say for example you lay down a pattern of five sigil squares in a X formation - the centre of the cross can now act as a focus for a shield type spell that confers a defensive bonus. Takes a while to set up the cross but its worth it for securing a choke point. Or you could lay down six squares in a < > arrangement - the three squares in the middle act as a wind tunnel - step in there and trigger that arrow defeating windstorm.

thoughts?

Rich.

	07-05-2002 17:28									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I like that idea, and I like it a lot!

You could have it so that some of your weaker, but longer-range spells, could be cast from anywhere - picture Saruman on the top of his tower. But you ground-zero, combat spells, the stuff that the mage chants on the hillsidew during the howling gale while battle rages below him in all the movies - they need to be chanted by a mage on a sigil tile, at risk from enemy forces, focusing the powers of the sigils into one mother of a spell!

I like it a lot.

	07-05-2002 20:18									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Rich, my friend, I think you have a winning idea!

We could even take it a step further and build more detail into certain graphical tiles....tiles with "crop circles" or something that might look a bit like StoneHenge....a natural nexus of magical energy....perhaps we could even allow players to research the creation of new sigils (expensive and time consuming, of course), with an eye toward creating their own sigil tiles as the game progressed.

Yeah....I'm diggin the sigil idea a lot....

-=Vel=-

	08-05-2002 01:38									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Wow - thanks guys!

Loved Vel's Stonehenge enhancement and Chowlett's weak spell from afar idea! And yes - researching new sigils would be cool - maybe have a separate (but expensive) tech tree branch for Thaurmaturgy. I'm thinking MOO2 style, where the forcefield techs were more expensive but more powerful than some of the others.

In the face of such enthusiasm from the top, what else could I do but scribble down some ponderings on how these sigils would actually work. So here goes....

OK first of all lets have four levels of spell, with level 1 being the weakest and level 4 being the strongest. And lets have two main classes of spell - passive and active. Passive spells are the warding/crop boosting/morale boosting type. Active spells are direct damage, shielding, terrain altering type. Pestilence would count as a Passive spell for example, Probability Control as an Active

A Wizard can cast level 1 spells 'bare brained'. Level 1 spells have a range/area of effect, which depends on the physical elevation of the caster. The image of Saruman in his tower is too good to pass up To increase the range beyond that, how about having something like the Seeing Stones of Numenor - you can build what amounts to a relay post in a province to allow for 'remote casting' of spells.

Next - level 2 spells. Require a single square sigil to cast. No functional difference at this point between Passive and active spells.

Now things get a little different. Level 3 spells require two distinct sigil patterns. A level 3 Active spell requires the Wizard to be at the centre of an X shaped arrangement of five sigil squares. Level 3 Active spells are significantly more effective than level 2 as you would expect. A level 3 Passive spell works slightly differently. To cast one requires a circle shaped sigil. Once cast the spell protects the *area* enclosed by the circle, giving you a lot more protective bang for your buck so to speak. . To compensate for this, the actual jump in effectiveness from a level 2 to a level 3 Passive spell is rather less noticable than it is for an Active. In Civ terms (this probably won't translate at all well but never mind), the circle area is equivalent to the City Radius.

Level 4 spells are really just turbo charged versions of level 3 and follow similar rules. Level 4 Active spells require a cross of 9 sigil squares, level 4 Passive spells require a larger circle but therefore protect more territory. Such big sigil patterns automatically generate a Stonehenge in the centre - a powerful magical focus is required to direct this much power!

- aside. On the Map view it would be possible to draw a crosshairs arrangement of sigils around a city. Anyone who takes aim with that particular crosshairs is in for a shock though

Rich.

P.S Love the Klein Bottle(?) avatar Chowlett!

	08-05-2002 01:55									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Final sigil relating rambling for tonight.

How much magic can you cram into a tile. Or - what happens when a Wizard gets greedy.

Couple of ideas here.

1) Allocate each sigil pattern a 'points per square' value - ranging from 1 for a stand-alone sigil, to 3 for a Greater Circle/ Large Cross of Power (patterns for level 4 spells). Then impose a limit of say four points per map square. This lets you have overlapping sigils for strategic effect, but does place limits on the overlap, forcing the player to make choices.

2) A slight variation on the above. Allow unlimited overlap but limit the spells that can be active at any one time. This in turn implies that spells can be switched on or off, which does kind of fit in with Pestilence style limited upkeep spells. Downside - the map could get horribly cluttered.

Either way, if you accidentally go over the limit (as an example I'm thinking by aiming a level 1 spell at a square thats handling all it cab) - well then you've got interesting possibilities for magical mishaps of any degree of severity. Definite possibilities for applying Fate Cards......


Rich

	08-05-2002 02:03									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by BigRich@home OK first of all lets have four levels of spell

I never liked spell systems with levels. Like turns, levels are an artificial concept - unlike turns, they are not necessary to produce enjoyable compter games

One of the reasons MOM is still so fondly remembered is that in some sense magic was continous... no levels, and limited only by the number of spell books you had. I liked that feeling very much. Never cottoned on to the HoMM "oh, cool, now I can cast level 5 spells" in the same way.

	08-05-2002 02:05									#20
	Put an end to popups!

This is getting Mucho interesting! I particularly like the circular Area of Effect casts! They bring to mind one of the more successful element of B&W, where you could cast shields and the like over regions of ground.

And I really like the trade-off you'd have between the need to cast a huge-area/power spell, and the time it would take to get your sigil patterns up!

And my imagination is overloading (a pity - means we probably can't draw it ) with images of a mage standing in the middle of the sigil pattern, chanting for all he's worth summoning the power of the surrounding sigils, which begin to pulsate and channel their energy into him, which he thrusts sky-ward in a burst of light that hits an invisible barrier and spreads down over the land to encompass the area of effect! Whew - I was thinking in shouts above that howling gale there!

	08-05-2002 03:22									#21
	Support Apolyton

Some excellent ideas... why does everybody post when I'm asleep?

Although I'm a long time AD&D afficianado, I think having level-less spells is a good idea to streamline gameplay and take the artificial feeling out of it. Of course, we need some distinct qualifyier, which is why I made religion-spells influence dependent.

We need to be careful with clutter if we make magic into tile improvements. Mines, plus fields and roads, will already make the map dense, not to mention placing sigil patterns all over the map. It's a good idea, but I think some of the patterns need to be a little smaller/less dense. Another factor with sigils is that perhaps using them is optional: You can cast the spell instantly with no sigils, but it is weaker and more expensive. Perhaps:

I want to use the Laernen spell "Fertility" on my fields. Normally cast, this spell improved food produciton for one tile. I can enchant one field tile with a Sigil of Fertility, which makes it so every time I cast Fertility on that tile it only costs me half the mana.

Later, I decide that I need more to boost the growth of that province. I enchant another tile with a Sigil of Fertility adjacent to the one I placed before. Later, I place a third Sigil, also adjacent to the first.

Now that I have placed 3 adjacent Sigils, the two newer Sigils vanish (poof) and the first center Sigil becomes a Greater Sigil of Fertility. This Greater Sigil allows me to cast Fertility at half price on ANY tile adjacent to the Greater Sigil.

This approach would lower clutter, especially if we prohibit Greater Sigils from overlapping. Artistry could also benefit this one, i.e. Sigils would look like wierd crop circles or something, and Greater Sigils would look like very intricate crop circles.

This approach would also make the player choose between augmenting his provinces in different ways: Since Greater Sigils can't overlap, is it better to support your population and prosperity with Fertility Sigils, or strengthen your defense with a Greater Sigil of Renewal?

	08-05-2002 06:23									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by BigRich@home P.S Love the Klein Bottle(?) avatar Chowlett!

Thanks - I missed that line the first time through.

Incidentally, that's what the link in my sig is all about - there's a guy who sells glass Klein Bottles (as well as Klein bottle hats and Möbius scarves).

	08-05-2002 07:28									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It's been awhile since I did D&D. But it occurs to me that magic as defined inthat system was broke down into a number of different groupings namely:

Elemental magics - Normally causing damage ie. lighting, wind, fireballs, magic missiles etc.

Charms - Ability to suggest, infulence or otherwise control a being or group of beings

Necromancy - Influence the dead, animate the dead, divine from the dead etc.

Summoning - Call on otherworld beings to do your bidding, Traveling via other dimension planes etc.

Illusions - Some so strong as to be a reality themselves

Healing - Restore health up to and including reviving the dead

Curses - Not strictly a D&D thing but more a thing of witches and voodoo folklore.


These magic families being the backbone of magic as most of us know it. How do these fit into the magic system of Candle'bre?

It seems you've attempted to find some means by way of a Religion system to implement use of Mana (i.e the magic of Candle'Bre seems clerical in nature in a D&D sense) but not all magic families seem to necessarily be represented inthe spells available. For instance there appears to be no:

Animate Dead ( temporary means to raise a unit )
Teleport (individual) Gate (Group)
Charms (think probe team subversion here)
Necromancy (Divine from the dead think stolen tech here)

I think there are more as with magic all things are possible. Most need to be understood from a strategic POV. So things like elemental magics where in area of effect are but a person or two are prolly not meaningful. OTOH broad area of effect need to be understood as well. :: Points to Ravogons thread: else a spell might become too powerful.

Anyhoo just my ramblings at this point.

	08-05-2002 07:30									#24
	Put an end to popups!

One other small point. What if any role do thieves play? (Previous post got me thinking of probe teams)

Sorry in advance if this threadjacks this thread.

Og

	08-05-2002 07:55									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

No problem, Vel loves threadjacks so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Espionage is carried out in an intangible manner by theives guilds... I'm sure those are in the core rules. One of the avenues of technology is espionage research, which lets you perform things like assassinations and theivery. More theives' guilds = more chance of succeeding... it's an attempt to balance espionage in a way that the Civ games we are so familiar with have not. Again, check the core rules for details.

As to segways with AD&D magic:

The way I see it, magic in the world of Candle'bre, whether carried out by Gods or wizards, is mostly influencing and supporting magic. I thought magic in AD&D was often too flashy, unbelievable, or unbalancing... I don't want an army teleporting anywhere in the provinces, or a player taking out entire armies with fireballs without spending any money on an army of his own.

Most AD&D spells also derive from the concept of "planes," which is something we do not have in Candle'bre. Teleportation through the Astral Plane, summoning things from other planes, force effects, etc... The magic of CBR is at present almost entirely elemental in nature. The Wizards for example, are feared for their ability to spread pestilence, not their wands of Chain Lightning.

It's a different approach, and that's my take on it. I know full well that people differ very widely on the issue, so I expect the model to change quite a bit.

	08-05-2002 08:54									#26
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx We could even take it a step further and build more detail into certain graphical tiles....tiles with "crop circles" or something that might look a bit like StoneHenge....a natural nexus of magical energy....perhaps we could even allow players to research the creation of new sigils (expensive and time consuming, of course), with an eye toward creating their own sigil tiles as the game progressed.

How about giving certain provinces "hidden" specials, for example magical focii (such as Stonehenge/Carnac, etc) that have to be discovered/unearthed?
Players have to assign a unit or two to exploration in a province (during which time they cannot be used for other operations perhaps) and give them a 5% (maybe 10% for certain unit types or for units with special leaders?) chance per round of discovery? If said province is lost in combat the unit involved is effectively lost without trace or somesuch.

You could also implement some sort of timing factor in the magic system. In a number of religions (and magic systems in rpg's) magical energy is enhanced in conjunction with astrological/cosmological phenomena (You might know a bit about this already Vel ) - Phases of the moon, eclipses, planetary alignments, etc.
Perhaps ritual (ie: non-combat) magic is enhanced during these particular game turns, or reduced during others - (which could go a ways to preventing "permacast" spells if there isn't enough energy to power them on certain turns).
This would add a bit to the strategic level too if certain factions were tempted to delay an offense until a magic-strong faction was at its weakest (or if a magic-strong faction were to hold off until at the apex of their power).
This might start to get a little complicated though methinks ...

	08-05-2002 09:17									#27
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 As to segways with AD&D magic: The way I see it, magic in the world of Candle'bre, whether carried out by Gods or wizards, is mostly influencing and supporting magic. I thought magic in AD&D was often too flashy, unbelievable, or unbalancing... I don't want an army teleporting anywhere in the provinces, or a player taking out entire armies with fireballs without spending any money on an army of his own.

So magic in Candle'Bre is intended more as a force-multiplyer rather than being a means to an end in its own right?
Like Merlin and his "Dragon's Breath" (summon mist on battlefield) spell for example?

Maybe borrow that 4th level AD&D spell that made a large number of men appear as trees, only to suddenly appear "out of nowhere" to surprise an enemy?

[Edit: Actually a better option more in keeping with the "feel" of Candle'Bre might be to conceal by clouding the minds of the viewers rather than wasting much more energy to seemingly alter the terrain itself]

*Off to search through old AD&D manuals*

	08-05-2002 09:45									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Most AD&D spells also derive from the concept of "planes," which is something we do not have in Candle'bre. Teleportation through the Astral Plane, summoning things from other planes, force effects, etc... The magic of CBR is at present almost entirely elemental in nature. The Wizards for example, are feared for their ability to spread pestilence, not their wands of Chain Lightning.

As I see it, prestilence is Death-aspected, the province of necromancers. In D&D terms natural magic is quite a lot like druid spells: plant growth, altering weather, bountiful harvests, that sort of thing. You can wrap in things such as fireballs, ice storms, lightning bolts, and the like, which just reflects the angry side of Nature.

	08-05-2002 10:01									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Necromancy traditionally deals with the life force of creatures. It directly alters the state of an individual or his body with respect to life and unlife. Actual ncr. death effects directly take the life force of the person, they don'e destory them through indirect/natural means. Pestilence (a natural phenomonon) is no more a necromantic effect than a ball of fire is.

AD&D "nature" spells do not include flashy effects like the mage's fireball or lightning bolt. They are less overtly offensive, "support" spells that I also see as the main magic of Candle'bre.

	08-05-2002 13:22									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chowlett Thanks - I missed that line the first time through. Incidentally, that's what the link in my sig is all about - there's a guy who sells glass Klein Bottles (as well as Klein bottle hats and Möbius scarves).

Yep - I read your sig and was trying to puzzle out what it meant. Then it struck me that your avatar resembled the Klein bottle hat (read an article about that somewhere - was it in Sci Am?) - and everything dropped into place

Rich