15-05-2002 14:32									#61
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could all of you stop trolling Siro now?

	15-05-2002 14:37									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov How thoughtfull and unexpected. You are aware that you are biased, I hope.

Yes, I´m aware of this. In fact I have argued that there is no unbiased sources in previous threads. Do pay attention, will you.

quote: You have still to prove that the pals are as credible as the Israelis. You decide that the Israelis are not credible based on your fantasies.

No I don´t

	15-05-2002 14:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Again, see? You ignore everything except your assumptions. You have failed to prove any zionist propoganda but you immediatelly blaim me of it. You never even attempted to prove Palestinian propoganda, but you naively gulp everything they say. You have not gone and read the actual evidence, but rather dismissed everything as "zionist propoganda". Even though I have my reservations about muslim and palestinain sources, even I make sure to actually read the content before saying anything. You haven't. You don't care. You have already decided that the PA is innocent.

	15-05-2002 14:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by rah I think that's changing in the US. If you read the papers, not everyone is following it blindly anymore. Not all the negative comments in the editorials are written by people with arab sounding names. I personally used to be solidly pro-Israel, but now I question it considerably. If they continue down the road they're travelling now, I predict that broadbased US support will continue to deteriorate. I hear more and more that people think both sides are in the wrong. I never used to hear that. I think if the PA could stop the Attacks for an extended period, Israel would find itself forced to do something or lose considerable support (including dollars) from the US. RAH

The question is of course who´s going to stop first? Justly I think it should be the Israelis. But I think you´re right, if the PA can somehow stop Hamas et al it would really put Israel on the spot. It´s good that the opinion is changing in the US, gives you some hope at least...

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion could all of you stop trolling Siro now?

I´m done...

	15-05-2002 14:47									#65
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thanks

	15-05-2002 15:35									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov You are trumpeting palestinain claims all day. You called Jenin a massacare before there was any evidence to support that claim or disprove it (as finally happenned).

Siro, do you notice the problem of generalizations?
I don't recall ever to say that there was a massacre in Jenin.
I mentioned the possibility of war crimes and the sadness of realizing the Israelli Government was trying to prevent an
investigation. And the investigation was prevented.

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov We got in, captured presentable evidence, and when we present them to you, and you automatically dismiss them. Your mind is already set and you are biased since you constantly choose to ignore lack of evidence and believe palestinain claims, and then ignore substantial evidence and disbelieve israeli claims. Ecowiz - when you have evidence against a person it's obvious that he has done what he has done. The only thing remaining for the court to decide is of what degree is the act.

Quite the contrary: The First Thing the court has to decide is the Admissibility of the Evidence. Then they may decide on the degree of the act.

I'm no expert on the subject, therefore I choose an entity as a better judge than myself, which is not very different from your own position on this issue. I have chosen International Press and the UN as better judges than myself (mostly the UN). You, OTOH, have chosen the Israelli Governement and IDF. Of course you may claim the the UN and the International Press are biased against Israel: it's your opinion and I have to respect your right to an opinion. But you have chosen one side of the conflict to be your judge! You can't be more biased than that.

However, be sure to know that i'll read the evidence you presented here, and aknowledge the fact that you did presented it, before everyone else and in front of much scepticism, the moment I read about UN's recognition of the evidence you now presented.

Will that be OK?

	15-05-2002 15:50									#67
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quote: Originally posted by rah How many of you think the PA is NOT involved in terrorism in some way. I seriously would like to know what you educated people think deep down. Let's see a show of hands.

I do believe the PA is, in the very least, not doing it's job of criminalising the terracts. I do believe that, calling the terrorists martyrs and allowing them to have atributed the honours of martyrs in their funerals and in the way they treat their families does stimulate terrorist action.

Other than that, I still didn't find convincing proof.
I also have many reasons why I don't trust the evidence provided
under the command of military generals which, usually, are overly trigger-happy for my taste.

That's why I would like to wait for an aknowledgment from the UN.

	15-05-2002 23:59									#68
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Siro, the Israeli court had to order the IDF to stop using torture only a few years ago. Since then the IDF has claimed that it stopped using 'overt torture', but it still uses methods like sleep deprivation, starvation, mental torture.

The Israeli court didn't order anyone to stop but rather made a verdict which outlawed torture in General.

The IDF isn't responsible for interrogations but GSS is, and according to interviews they haven't used actual physical torture for over 10 years.

As for sleep depravation - it's partial sleep depravation - meaning limiting the time one sleeps.

We're not talking about complete lack of sleep or anything.

I never heard of starvation being employed, and according to what I read they are being fed.

Mental torutre - you mean mental pressure I hope. And yes, it is employed. Just like any other country. Just like the police uses mental pressure. Do you expect them to spill it out over a cup of coffee or something?

quote: If you are really curious, read ANY human rights report.

i've read palestinians accusing israel of all sorts of things, most of them proved to be untrue. Therefore you have to understand when I take their words with a grain of salt.

quote: And before you lash out about how nasty the palestinians are or how that eskimos sometimes beat their dogs or why we should give back all land to the native americans, this thread is ONLY about the trustworthyness of a source that uses torture to extract information.

GSS does not employ physical torture afaik.

It does have a right to employ "limited physical pressure" if the are dealing with a "ticking bomb" situation, according to court.

quote: and beside the torture, what would you say to someone who told you 'with one phonecall I can have a helicopter 'mistakenly' kill your whole family. Are you sure you can't invent some terrorist links for us?

Oh come on.

You're speaking bullshit again.

Israel never killed families on purpose and you know that. The worst we are doing is evicting terrorist families.


Again, you are equating mistaken identification cases, to cases which are obviously targetted slaughters - the terrorist acts.

You arne't a dumb person. You know that mistakes happen. For god's sake, USA's only casualties in Afghanistan were it's own people.

IDF also killed some of it's own on mistakes on times.

If you want to know how humanely IDF operates, why don't you read this first hand report:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/12/m...7202a4bde333e05

	16-05-2002 00:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti Well, your choice of thread title suggests otherwise and I did not see you add any qualifiers, but if you only wanted to post this as a possible viewpoint then fair enough. You will have to forgive me for being a cynic and not accepting it all at face value, though.

Well true, since the thread title is meant to draw attention.

Also, while I do think that this is the truth, and I am saying "guys, this is what I think the truth is" I don't think that I ever "forced" anyone to believe this.

However, when people start talking nonsense and making rediculous claims about so called "zionist inventions" (the holocaust was an invention too, huh?) i get upset.

Obviously I understand that such claims are plausible in a conflict. However, I've been listening to claims on both sides and I think that IDF has credibility. I also think that the Pals have little credibility.

quote: I was primarily talking about military and intelligence matters. Even in the most liberal democracy, these are not issues where there is free access to information. There are good and legitimate reasons for that and it is not particularly worth criticizing; however, it means that any information coming from official sources should be taken with a very big pinch of salt.

Why?

Officials are there to take care of things which shouldn't be public.

They do usually know what they are talking about.

There still hasn't been a case in Israel of a political conns by security sources.

quote: How so? If the article is to be believed, many journalists have the army - a direct party to the conflict - as their main or sole source, and implies that many are more or less openly throwing pretenses of objectivity out the window. That is hardly trust-inducing if you ask me...

What is this army?

It's people. It's the same people. There could be no serious lies since after all, everyone are in the army, and people go to serve each year.

If the army was a closed professional army then it would be plausible to suspect it.

However, the army in Israel is really 'everyone'. Everyone serve and everyone know what's going on.

If you want to know the truth - you ask your neighbour / sibling.

I for instance had an interview with a teacher of mine who served in Bethlehem for 4 weeks.

quote: Not sure what you are getting at here... What has changed in the last month? And whose opinions am I ignoring? Have I even said I disagree with something here?

I'm saying that the fact that there are such articles, doubting our position, proves that we are capable of close-to-objective view.

And I'm saying, that contrary to many people here (not you specifically), I tend to read things which I disagree with, and I tend to rethink my position.

quote: I would argue that that is certainly no necessity, and that it reflects rather poorly on the Israeli government to do it. This is nothing more than propaganda.

To some extent - yes it is. I'm not a fan of "smooth talk" and I usually call things what they are (unless when I imagine i'm some bigshot PR guy )

But then again, do you think it's wise for Israel to allow encitement against it using it's own media?

I'm sure the US wouldn't like PBS in arabic to broadcast about "the illegal criminal war against the peaceful people of afghanistan".

quote: Certainly. Is that supposed to be an excuse, though? There is obviously an agenda they are trying to push...

Obviously there is.

It is after all a PBS - it's supposed to be pro-state and all.

quote: I will take your word for it. Anyway, I am not suggesting that Israel is a dictatorship that goes around censoring every newspaper article and every radio sound clip; just that the nature of the sources being used and the smaller likelihood of the reporters being able to detach themselves from the events at hand in general will tend to reduce their credibility. International news agencies should suffer less from this...

In the contrary.

Israeli news reporters keep close ties to all sources and infact are proud of the quantity of their arabic sources, both official and non-official, often within high ranks of the palestinian cabinet.

All the reporters about arabs for instance, are people with degrees in middle east studies, and are usually quite good friends with palestinian officials.

just recently a reporter told than when meeting with Jibril Rajoub to talk to him about "defensive shield" he brought him some quality food, since they are friends and at that time it wasn't easy getting groceries, especially for Rajoub who is now haunted by people of opposing factions.

	16-05-2002 00:26									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Siro, do you notice the problem of generalizations? I don't recall ever to say that there was a massacre in Jenin.

But most of the posters dismissing this evidence I brough did.

I'm sorry, but when adressing many people, it's only logical to sometimes generalize.

quote: I mentioned the possibility of war crimes and the sadness of realizing the Israelli Government was trying to prevent an investigation. And the investigation was prevented.

I find it wierd that you blame Israel for preventing the investigation, after it was the one that asked for it in the first place.

Israel wanted several rules for the investigation, to which the UN didn't agree - namely the right for witnesses not to incriminate themselves. And a right to see the conclusion some time in advance.

I don't see anything unreasonable.

quote: Quite the contrary: The First Thing the court has to decide is the Admissibility of the Evidence. Then they may decide on the degree of the act.

The evidence were collected during a military operation.

There isn't a question of 'cause for search'. It's not a civil policing force.

quote: I'm no expert on the subject, therefore I choose an entity as a better judge than myself, which is not very different from your own position on this issue. I have chosen International Press and the UN as better judges than myself (mostly the UN). You, OTOH, have chosen the Israelli Governement and IDF. Of course you may claim the the UN and the International Press are biased against Israel: it's your opinion and I have to respect your right to an opinion. But you have chosen one side of the conflict to be your judge! You can't be more biased than that.

But I continue to try and prove that while it has every reason to be biased, the Israeli media is going out of it's skin to try and stay impartial, or atleast close to it.

The problem with international press, is that it's too lazy and too unthorough and too PC to make hard conclusions. Usually they just repeat the official versions for the viewers.

quote: However, be sure to know that i'll read the evidence you presented here, and aknowledge the fact that you did presented it, before everyone else and in front of much scepticism, the moment I read about UN's recognition of the evidence you now presented.

UN?

You must be joking.

Do you seriously believe that the UN is anything but a politicized bunch?


Tell me, do you also expect the evidence against UBL to be recognized by the UN?

	16-05-2002 00:38									#71
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Easy - since there hasn't been any, they won't, so we can't expect them to do that. On the contrary.

	16-05-2002 01:05									#72
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Ecthelion - how about the 2 or 3 tapes of him talking to his mates?

	16-05-2002 01:06									#73
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OK, the tapes are a point. But they're not real evidence, he might be showing off. Evidence would be stuff like bills, phone calls BEFORE the attack, and stuff like that. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories though

	16-05-2002 04:07									#74
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Are people really waiting for the UN to confirm the evidence before they believe it? They are one of the most anit-Israeli organization on this planet. It is really too bad that people like Siro have to defend their right to even exist as a nation while the 'unbiased' Europeans will not change their views regardless of the evidence presented by anyone. Why don't you all admit that you really don't like Israel?

This 'opressor' thing is another joke. Israel responds to fanatics that kill innocent civiilians. If they stop killing the innocent then Israel will leave them alone. They don't want a state, they want to drive Israel into the sea.

If you want to talk about oppressed people then the blacks in the United States were oppressed. How did they gain their freedom? By non-violence. Palestians want to kill Jews because they hate them. They are taught to hate them as they grow up. They are not oppressed, they are a weak opponant that would blow Israel off of the face of the earth if they had the weapons. Israel does have the weapons but they show restraint in their use. God help them if the Palestians ever get the upper hand. Then you will learn the meaning of the word 'masacre'.

	16-05-2002 14:04									#75
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Bullshit! UN isn´t anti-Israel. Quite the opposite, they haven´t done squat for the palestinians. They ****ed them over good in 1948 and they still do today. All the resolutions in the world are useless when you can´t back them with real power. The USA and the spineless nature of the UN General Assembly prevents that.

So don´t talk about UN being anti-Israel. They support the zionist regime all the way.

	16-05-2002 14:30									#76
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You're full of sh*t on this Kamrat. The UN isn't anti-Israel? Hah!

The fact is the UN doesn't have the power to back up its drivel. That's because it's become a whine-fest for has-been and never-will-be powers. The day that cr*p-fest becomes a real force in the world is the day we all will rue.

Last edited by notyoueither on 16-05-2002 at 14:37

	16-05-2002 14:50									#77
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Tell me the last time the U.S. passed a resolution labelling the PLO racist. Or the last timeThe U.N. demanded the Palestinians stop suicide bombing no matter what the Israelis did. Or the last time a U.N. official compared the Palestinian flag to a swastika.

In 1948 the U.N. was not at all the same as it was today. It was mostly dominated by Western and Pro-Western nations that the U.S. could influence. Now it's dominated by various petty dictators and tyrants who couldn't care less about the rest of the world. It's used as a platform for anti-U.S., anti Israel **** these days. And as NYE said, it has no power to back up it's rhetoric.

quote: All the resolutions in the world are useless when you can´t back them with real power. The USA and the spineless nature of the UN General Assembly prevents that.

They are very useful because people like you seem to take them as some sort of holy writ to determine what's right and wrong.

	16-05-2002 18:52									#78
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Siro:
So the UN are a bunch of politicians?
So is your Government and up until now I haven't seen you
even questioning a small bit what they or the IDF proclaim (yes, the generals are also all a bunch of politicians, or haven't you noticed that, already?).
And, also, you can't disallow any credit to polititians. Otherwize you are admiting all social organization, historically established and constantly evolving, is simply wrong, without ofering nothing else in return.

All:
As for the UN's position I'm tired of historical references regarding what once upon a time was a pontual UN position regarding Israel. The fact is that both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian claim the UN is against them simply because the UN current position is critical towards both sides. Since, in my opinion, both sides deserve criticism, and both sides are unilateraly perpetuating their disrespectfull atitude toward the rightfull desires of Peace, Land and Security of the human beings whose destinies they afect, while demanding the other to stop, I think the UN is, in this moment (aside with the EU, that also has a critical position towards both sides) the most unbiased organization, regarding the Israelli-Palestinian Conflict. Please note, that, when talking of the UN, I mostly talk of the position of the Secretary General and the Security Council.

	16-05-2002 19:12									#79
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're full of sh*t on this Kamrat. The UN isn't anti-Israel? Hah! The fact is the UN doesn't have the power to back up its drivel. That's because it's become a whine-fest for has-been and never-will-be powers. The day that cr*p-fest becomes a real force in the world is the day we all will rue.

Clearly you see what you want to see

	16-05-2002 19:14									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Siro: So the UN are a bunch of politicians? So is your Government and up until now I haven't seen you even questioning a small bit what they or the IDF proclaim (yes, the generals are also all a bunch of politicians, or haven't you noticed that, already?).

The UN is supposed to be a neutral, unbiased body. But because it's politicians who make the decisions there, you cant treat it as such.

	16-05-2002 19:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Tell me the last time the U.S. passed a resolution labelling the PLO racist. Or the last timeThe U.N. demanded the Palestinians stop suicide bombing no matter what the Israelis did. Or the last time a U.N. official compared the Palestinian flag to a swastika. In 1948 the U.N. was not at all the same as it was today. It was mostly dominated by Western and Pro-Western nations that the U.S. could influence. Now it's dominated by various petty dictators and tyrants who couldn't care less about the rest of the world. It's used as a platform for anti-U.S., anti Israel **** these days. And as NYE said, it has no power to back up it's rhetoric. They are very useful because people like you seem to take them as some sort of holy writ to determine what's right and wrong.

If the UN proposes a trade embargo against Israel and send peacekeeping forces there to secure the safety of palestinian suicide bombers, then (maybe) I will take your pathetic whining seriously.

	16-05-2002 19:50									#82
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Kamrat, you know verlly well that the UN would do so if it could.

	16-05-2002 20:00									#83
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do you actually believe that? while answering please keep in mind I might lack the mind to understand it or even read that language. I'm only Emperor Dumbarse here after all.

	16-05-2002 20:01									#84
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Oh I thought the UN was a Zionist-communist conspiracy that's planning to invade the US as soon as possible. That's at least what many people that have a black&white view of international politics usually says.

	16-05-2002 20:06									#85
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Kamrat, tell me again why Israel has never been on the security council?

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Siro: So the UN are a bunch of politicians? So is your Government and up until now I haven't seen you even questioning a small bit what they or the IDF proclaim (yes, the generals are also all a bunch of politicians, or haven't you noticed that, already?).

While my government can be many things about inner affiars - one thing is certain - it is a democratic government that exists to protect me, and i have effect on it, in democratic elections.

The UN however, is ruled by dozens of dictatorships and anti-western countries. Furthremore, it has some european countries who have guilt complexities.

quote: And, also, you can't disallow any credit to polititians. Otherwize you are admiting all social organization, historically established and constantly evolving, is simply wrong, without ofering nothing else in return.

You fail to understand that politic is different depedant on scales.

My government is the government of Israel. Therefore, it often has to make political decisions on the state level.

However, it has little political barriers when it comes to international policy.

The UN however, can only relate on an international level, and for it, the international politics is as difficult as inner state politics for Israel.

What I'm saying, is that just like Israel's government can't proclaim that the Religious parties are forcing certain decisions on it, the UN can't proclaim that the Muslim & Arab countries are forcing decisions on it.

But both things are true.

However, Israel is a democratic system with a seporated court and government and parliament.

The UN is not. The UN is a very hypocritical parliament with a majority of non-democratic leaders.

quote: As for the UN's position I'm tired of historical references regarding what once upon a time was a pontual UN position regarding Israel. The fact is that both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian claim the UN is against them simply because the UN current position is critical towards both sides.

That is not true.
Your opinion is simplistic and objectivist. Instead of looking at the facts and making a decision, you prefer a "they are all guilty" approach.

Please relate to the claims that General Taticus put up, and then try and say the UN is not anti-israel.

quote: Since, in my opinion, both sides deserve criticism, and both sides are unilateraly perpetuating their disrespectfull atitude toward the rightfull desires of Peace, Land and Security of the human beings whose destinies they afect, while demanding the other to stop,

Please elaborate in how Israel is disrespectful towards peace, land and security.

quote: I think the UN is, in this moment (aside with the EU, that also has a critical position towards both sides) the most unbiased organization, regarding the Israelli-Palestinian Conflict.

LOL

Obviously, letting a terrorist organization like Hezballa do it's thing is unbiased.

Tell me, how can an organization with a smashing anti-israeli majority (22 arab states, 1 israel) be "unbiased"?

quote: Please note, that, when talking of the UN, I mostly talk of the position of the Secretary General and the Security Council.

The current security council includes syria - which overtly and covertly supports terror and terrorist organzations. Syria is a ground for terrorist training camps. Syria's capitol, damascus, is home to the main headquarters of 26 different terror organization, especially Hamas and Islamic Jihad.


Israel however, was never on the security council afaik.

	16-05-2002 20:07									#86
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Do you think that's because the UN is anti-semitic?

	16-05-2002 20:10									#87
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Kropotkin, Ecthelion - the UN has numerously suggested entering international forces, and only through US pressure didn't accept suggestions to call for an embargo.

Let's review how UN forces work in Lebanon:

When Israeli troops are abducted, they watch the incident, and then help the terrorists replace their tires, while the kidnapped soldiers are in the car, injured.

When terrorists are bombing Israel, UN forces only report when Israel bombs back.

Furthermore, UN forces are a base of supply for the terrorist. They are being robbed for supplies and ammo on a weekly basis.

	16-05-2002 20:14									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/main.asp Dozens of files with all sources in source language and translated. Two examples: Captured documents and the interrogation of Operation "Defensive Shield" detainees demonstrate unequivocally the involvement of the PA General Intelligence in direct and indirect assistance to terrorist activities The captured documents and detainees' interrogation prove beyond any doubt that the PA General Intelligence and other security apparatuses under Arafat's direct command, who, according to the agreements between Israel and the Palestinians were supposed to prevent terrorism from PA areas, instead turned into a central element in masterminding and encouraging terror and in assisting terrorist squads to perpetrate terrorist atrocities in Israel. 1. On 27 January 2002 a female suicide terrorist ,Wafaa Idris perpetrated a murderous terrorist attack in Jaffa Street ,Jerusalem. The terrorist attack was unusual in that it was the first suicide attack carried out by a Palestinian woman, and was a precedent for additional suicide attacks by Palestinian women. In the attack one Israeli civilian was killed and 131 injured. 2. A captured document of the PA Preventive Security Apparatus in Ramallah notes that the PA General Intelligence was involved in the attack. According to the document, the head of General Intelligence in the West Bank, Colonel Toufiq Tirawi, attempted, immediately after the attack to cover up the fact that Wafaa Idris (who was identified with the Fatah) carried out the attack. This apparently in order to conceal the fact that Fatah and the "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades" were involved in a terrorist attack in the heart of Jerusalem. 3 .To this end Tirawi offered a "deal" to Wafaa's brother, who is wanted for attacks he carried out himself,whereby Tirawi would whisk him out to Jordan and in return the Idris family would refrain from declaring that Wafaa carried out the attack. However, the brother refused and said that he was not prepared to "sell" his sister's blood like that. Three days after the attack took place (30 January), only after the cover-up attempt failed, did the "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades" claim responsibility for the attack. 4 .Wanted terrorist activists who were detained in Operation Defensive Wall, reported in their interrogation of the direct involvement of Tirawi and his men in recruiting terrorists, their preparation, and the supply of ammunition for their operations. In addition, in the possession of a General Intelligence official, Muhamed Araj, a Kalandia refugee camp resident, were found (16 April 2002) two explosive belts (one ready for use) and 2 suicide letters. Beit Jala School Premises Converted into a Center of Terrorist Activities Against Israel The head of the German Liaison Office to the Palestinian Authority protested againstthe turning of a Beit Jala School into a base for terror activities against Israel among civilian concentrations. A captured document indicates that the head of the German Liaison office to the PA addressed a letter to Jibril Rajoub regarding the activities of armed Palestinians on the premises of "Talitakoumi" school in Beit Jala (the school is financed by the Protestant Church in Berlin). The letter was addressed on the background of apprehension that this could lead to an Israeli military reaction Jibril was therefore requested to assist in removing the gunmen from the school premises. It is of note that this school is situated on the Beit Jala ridge from where firing at Israeli vehicles on the Bethlehem bypass "tunnel road" was carried out. Turning the school, which is attended by some 1,000 students according to the captured document, into a terrorist activity center, once again demonstrates that the terror organizations are cynically exploiting the civilian population. 1. A document captured during Operation Defensive Shield unveils the use made by terrorist organizations of the premises of a school situated on the Beit Jala ridge, which is attended by some 1,000 students. The school serves the terror organizations as a base for firing at vehicles on the "tunnel road", the main highway connecting Hebron and Jerusalem (the original document and its translation are attached). 2 .Andreas Reinecke, the head of the German Liaison Office to the PA, addressed a letter on the subject to Jibril Rajoub, the head of the PA Preventive Security Apparatus, on March 5, 2002. Reinecke complained that armed Palestinian activists intend to act from the premises of "Talitakoumi" school .Reinecke added that if they succeed in doing so, this might provoke Israeli retaliatory reaction, which will have a negative influence on the continuation of the operation of the school. He notes that if the people in Germany will find out that the school is being used as a battle ground, this will stir trouble, as many Germans provide financial aid to the school, which enables it to exist .At the end of the letter, Jibril Rajoub is requested to ensure the security of the school for the benefit of the local Palestinians. 3 .Following are some comments regarding the above: a. "Talitakoumi" school is situated on the Beit Jala ridge overlooking the "tunnel road" highway connecting Hebron and Jerusalem via Gush Etzion. This is a main transportation route for Israeli vehicles. b. The "tunnel road" bypassing Bethlehem was built at considerable expense during the IDF's redeployment after the Oslo Accords. This was done in order to avert any extra friction between Israel and the Palestinian population by diverting the transportation route west of Bethlehem. c. The "tunnel road" was attacked on scores of occasions from Beit Jala ridge, inflicting many casualties on Israel. Gunshots were fired at Israeli vehicles driving on the "tunnel road" from the "Talitakoumi" school area. d .The terror activities conducted from an area as sensitive as a school with some 1,000 students, once again illustrate the cynical use which the terrorist organizations are making of the civilian population, amongst whom they find refuge and act from within their concentrations. It is noteworthy that the civilian population in the Beit Jala area, whose houses were turned into terror bases, has time and again expressed its dismay at being included in the fighting cycle, against its wishes. These protests even developed into local violent clashes in the past.

relax, nato won't bomb you even if you do not have the proofs.

	16-05-2002 20:15									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Do you think that's because the UN is anti-semitic?

the UN is anti-semitic because it's being ruled by anti-semitic countries.

things like democracy and law should be basis for entering the UN.

But Syria & PA & Iraq are all having thier fun.

	16-05-2002 20:18									#90
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quote: The UN however, is ruled by dozens of dictatorships and anti-western countries. Furthremore, it has some european countries who have guilt complexities.

The member states are in many instances not democratic but the UN itself is arguably in a general sence democratic. A democracy should first and foremost be labeled so after its processes for decision-making not the views of its members personal standpoint.