16-05-2002 20:19									#91
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quote: things like democracy and law should be basis for entering the UN.

That has already in a way been done, that didn't work out fine, remember?

	16-05-2002 20:20									#92
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When did that happen, Kropotkin, and what exactly happened?

	16-05-2002 20:25									#93
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Leauge of nations. A division not exacly between democraties and dictatorships but still. Not letting all countries be part in the process is not a good basis for international politics. If Israel but none of the states against Israel would be members of the UN it would be a mirror image of what Siro portrays the UN as. I do not see the point in that.

Just letting the democratic world rule in international politics would clearly seem as a reinstallation of the "white mans burden" as rulers of the world over the head of other.

	16-05-2002 20:35									#94
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Not necessarily, think India.

Plus, if connected with opportunities for those countries which they wouldn't get otherwise, it might lead to nations getting more democratic in order to join...

	16-05-2002 20:59									#95
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quote: Just letting the democratic world rule in international politics would clearly seem as a reinstallation of the "white mans burden" as rulers of the world over the head of other.

And I guess we better let those crazy dictators run the place . Good thinking

	16-05-2002 21:00									#96
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No dictator is running the place, Dal...

	16-05-2002 21:21									#97
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Dal: Sure, its unpleasant to let morons (even if the yanks are democratic ) take part but that's the great paradox of democracy; even those opposed to it can take part. We might despise them but making decisions that affects them without them is not fair either. (of cource one could be opposed to the idea of the UN all togheter but the same applies to normal democratic states).

As for the UN, no really important decisions can be made without the acceptance of a number of democraties in the security council so I wouldn't say that crazy dictators runs the place.

	16-05-2002 21:26									#98
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I said it. Now, why is it Israel was never a member of the security council? Has every country been there yet? I'd suppose so, even the GDR was, and back then they had to wait for a long time until being recognised by other nations. Now how many people recognise the state of Israel nowadays? How long didi it take until Israel was first recognised, had many countries recognise it etc.?

	16-05-2002 21:32									#99
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oh man, just wrote replies to your posts, and then realized they don't really make sence . You know, I've got fever now. 38 degrees.

	16-05-2002 21:34									#100
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how many muslim states are there? take number , substract two, and substract the result from the number of UN members.

	16-05-2002 21:36									#101
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38 isn't that much, Dal

But oh well, if it's that hard, get better!

So every state but the Middle East one recognise Israel? Who are those 2? Jordan and Egypt?

	16-05-2002 21:37									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti oh man, just wrote replies to your posts, and then realized they don't really make sence . You know, I've got fever now. 38 degrees.

Don't you worry, we wouldn't notice the difference

	16-05-2002 21:51									#103
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Kropo : why thank you .
Ecthelion : thanks , but AFAIK 38 Degrees C is A LOT. 36.6-37 are in the normal. Oh , AFAIK , all the things you've stated are correct.

	16-05-2002 22:11									#104
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Have really not a few muslim states far from the middle east like Indonesia recogniced Israel?

	16-05-2002 22:21									#105
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I am not sure. oh and check out my new quote

	16-05-2002 22:27									#106
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Oh, thanks. So I'm an anti-semite after all, I didn't know that.

Considering I'm an anti-nationalist I must be one of the greates hatemonglers around.

	16-05-2002 22:31									#107
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time for some quotes to fly your way

"
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism."

. He was a great man. (with no connection to the quotes )

	16-05-2002 22:41									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Instead of looking at the facts and making a decision, you prefer a "they are all guilty" approach.

That is not true! I look at the facts and see that there are guilty parties on both sides. I actually find it dangerously simplistic that you only find guilt on one side of this problem.
Furthermore, I tend to concentrate more on how to solve the problem than in who begun all this or who is more guilty.

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Please relate to the claims that General Taticus put up, and then try and say the UN is not anti-israel.

quote: Originally posted by General Taticus Tell me the last time the U.S. passed a resolution labelling the PLO racist. Or the last timeThe U.N. demanded the Palestinians stop suicide bombing no matter what the Israelis did. Or the last time a U.N. official compared the Palestinian flag to a swastika.

Really Siro, how serious do you think these claims are?
I had a recent discussion here in Portugal because some guy said my club was being favoured because it had more penalties awarded than any other. Equal treatment does not mean that what you say to one partie must be the same you say to another. I actually don't recall the UN asking Israel to stop sending suicide bombers to Palestinian cities (and I dfon't expect it to happen, too).

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Please elaborate in how Israel is disrespectful towards peace, land and security.

I'm not talking about Israel. As far as I think about it, Israel is the Israelli people and I don't make such generalizations. Now, regarding your current Government...
Look Siro, you can read previous posts of mine and realize my opinion regarding this issue. Summing up, I do not believe Peace is in your current Government's Agenda. However, since you simply do not want to have a critical mind toward your own Government, there is nothing I can write that can help our debate.

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Tell me, how can an organization with a smashing anti-israeli majority (22 arab states, 1 israel) be "unbiased"?

Are we talking about the Security Council votes and veto powers?
You're right when you say we have more arab nations than jewish, but the European nations alone (that have, plenty of times voted aside Israel) represent more than that.

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov The current security council includes syria - which overtly and covertly supports terror and terrorist organzations. Syria is a ground for terrorist training camps. Syria's capitol, damascus, is home to the main headquarters of 26 different terror organization, especially Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Israel however, was never on the security council afaik.

OK, but the US (eternal ally) has permanent position there.
Also veto power assure that no extremist anti-Israel proposal has ever passed (and not only because of the US, as you most certainly must be aware).

	16-05-2002 22:43									#109
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quote: OK, but the US (eternal ally) has permanent position there. Also veto power assure that no extremist anti-Israel proposal has ever passed (and not only because of the US, as you most certainly must be aware

that's obviously not correct. think 30 years ago and earlier.

	16-05-2002 22:46									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Kropotkin, Ecthelion - the UN has numerously suggested entering international forces, and only through US pressure didn't accept suggestions to call for an embargo. Let's review how UN forces work in Lebanon: When Israeli troops are abducted, they watch the incident, and then help the terrorists replace their tires, while the kidnapped soldiers are in the car, injured. When terrorists are bombing Israel, UN forces only report when Israel bombs back. Furthermore, UN forces are a base of supply for the terrorist. They are being robbed for supplies and ammo on a weekly basis.

You are oversteping you're grounds too much when you use an incident to ilustrate all the UN's action in Lebanon. And all UN military interventions,in the process.

About ammo: the same can be said in any warzone. Robery is very common.

Next time you use this example think about this post and remember why someone becomes tempted to regard you less
seriously.

	16-05-2002 22:54									#111
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Ecowiz : you're just being foolish now. We all know how good the UN peacekeeping are in Lebanon , to this day. I may dare ask you a question. what's their job there?

	16-05-2002 22:59									#112
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Dal : you're just being foolish now. We all know how good the Isreali peacekeeping are in Palestine , to this day. I may dare ask you a question. what's their job there

	16-05-2002 23:08									#113
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nice directionshifting strawman.

	17-05-2002 05:35									#114
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I will answer , but not now I´m to drunk ( but i t ype good...) Beenout drinking with a very nice gril

	17-05-2002 12:07									#115
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quote: now I´m to drunk ( but i t ype good...) Beenout drinking

you sure you type well?

	17-05-2002 12:35									#116
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Better than some of the other drunken posters I´ve seen

	17-05-2002 13:10									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Kamrat, you know verlly well that the UN would do so if it could.

I wish...

As to why Israel´s never been on the security council, I don´t know. They´re probably blocked by arab nations. They whine quite a bit about this on http://www.israel-un.org/Israelun/isrun/isrun2.htm

But you have to remember that UN is a democratic body that makes descisions based on majority. That´s the rules of western democracy. IMO Israel isn´t singled out as much as in constant minority.

	17-05-2002 13:30									#118
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quote: Really Siro, how serious do you think these claims are?

Are you assuming that I am Siro's DL?

quote: I had a recent discussion here in Portugal because some guy said my club was being favoured because it had more penalties awarded than any other. Equal treatment does not mean that what you say to one partie must be the same you say to another.

I does when the actions of the Palestinians are much worse than those of the Israelis, yet the U.N. ignores this.

quote: I actually don't recall the UN asking Israel to stop sending suicide bombers to Palestinian cities (and I dfon't expect it to happen, too).

Well, duh. Israel doesn't send suicide bombers into Palestinian cities. My point is that the U.N. has never, AFAIK, simply demanded that the Pals immediately stop attacking the Israelis.

quote: But you have to remember that UN is a democratic body that makes descisions based on majority. That´s the rules of western democracy. IMO Israel isn´t singled out as much as in constant minority.

A majority of nations, not of people. Nations have no inherent identity or counsciousness. The people in them do. And as most of the nations in the UN are dictatorships, obviously it cannot make any claim to democracy.

	17-05-2002 17:07									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Don't have the time to read them at the moment but why sould anyone take files from the IDF as evidence? They are after all one of the sides in the conflict. If someone used as source like that in a paper I would laugh my guts out.

hi ,

well you could always go to brussel's in belgium , go to the EU and check their reports , they are almost all open to the public , that is if you can get a small background check , ......and pass it , .....

also , why should the Israeli's tell their secrets to you , ....
ask the French , the English , and most of all ask the people who are there , .....

and you could always come to see for your self , .......;

have a nice day

	17-05-2002 17:47									#120
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What does that reply have to do with my post in particular or the subject at all in general?