15-05-2002 06:43									#1
	Do you consider re-loading previous saves to be cheating? Got spare money?

I do. If I made a bad descision and things start to go poorly, it is tempting to re-load an older save-file and try a different approach. I don't do it 'cause a 'real leader' can't go back and re-make descisions. Of course...when the computer somehow creates a wonder 5 turns after discovering the needed technology I am tempted to 'even things up'

	15-05-2002 13:19									#2
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Reloading because you moved a unit north instead of north-west isn't cheating.

Reloading because you lost a battle is cheating.

Reloading because you didn't concentrate enough on rapid growth isn't cheating unless its at tournament. Otherwise its learning better ways to do things.

Reloading because you forgot you were a religious civ and didn't go for Monarchy is cheating. (So I didn't reload on my latest game that I am pretty sure I am going to lose).

	15-05-2002 13:36									#3
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When I see the AI cheating outrageously I have no problem doing whatever it takes to even things up. If it doesn't cheat, neither do I.

I ALWAYS reload whenever any of that Culture Flipping garbage happens, and I make whatever alterations are needed to stop it or prepare to raze the city.

	15-05-2002 13:43									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle When I see the AI cheating outrageously I have no problem doing whatever it takes to even things up. If it doesn't cheat, neither do I.

Since the AI doesn't cheat outrageously then you should never reload.

You seem to be under the impresion that the game is cheating when you chose to play with a handicap. Stick to Regent. The only handicap there is your technique.

quote: I ALWAYS reload whenever any of that Culture Flipping garbage happens, and I make whatever alterations are needed to stop it or prepare to raze the city.

Do you reload when they Culture flip TO YOU? I bet you don't.

	15-05-2002 14:02									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Since the AI doesn't cheat outrageously then you should never reload.

Utter nonsense. I wouldn't even waste my time detailing the examples.

quote: Do you reload when they Culture flip TO YOU? I bet you don't.

No, I often quit in disgust. As I did when Antium, A Roman city of '12' that had been Roman for 5,000 years, suddenly and inexplicably flipped to me. Yea, a Roman city with millennia of Roman culture is just going to decide to join another civ because of the dopey AI formula dreamed up by Firaxis programmers after one too many beers.

BTW, there is nothing I can do to stop a city flipping to me by reloading. I have asked many times to be able to totally toggle off that Culture Flipping crap, be it regarding cities or borders.

	15-05-2002 14:21									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Utter nonsense. I wouldn't even waste my time detailing the examples.

It would be a waste of time. You would repeat the imortal galley nonsense you keep posting.

quote: BTW, there is nothing I can do to stop a city flipping to me by reloading. I have asked many times to be able to totally toggle off that Culture Flipping crap, be it regarding cities or borders.

Play Civ II. Its pretty clear that you would prefer that. Culture flipping is part of the game. Its there to give a less method of growth. People asked for ways to win without warmongering.

	15-05-2002 15:16									#7
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Ok, I confess, I reload after some battles, but that is always with all the barbarians at the start. Suddenly, a giant horde of barbarians is approching my cities, and I usually can manage to keep them at bay, but usually only after a few reloads. I would like to keep the barbarians at a straight level all throughout the game, like in Civ II, not just a giant horde in the beginning and then nothing...

	15-05-2002 15:36									#8
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You should never, ever reload under any circumstance. You moved a unit north when you wanted to move it north-west? Tough. You made a mistake - compensate for it. That's what great leaders do.

	15-05-2002 15:41									#9
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I always reload the game when something really bad happens.
It saves me the time of having to start a new game.
Just don't make the mistake of using a game that you won that way as 'evidence' of how good you are at this game.

Edit: Learning to compensate errors will be my next step in learning to play civ3. I will need it when I start multiplaying !

Last edited by Flandrien on 15-05-2002 at 15:49

	15-05-2002 15:49									#10
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quote: You should never, ever reload under any circumstance.

Wrong. YOU should never reload under any circumstance. I will continue to keep in mind that its for fun not competition.

Me, I have a problem with the map angle and the way I sometimes have my keyboard canted. Its either reload or restart sometimes.

quote: You made a mistake - compensate for it. That's what great leaders do.

I am leading a bunch of pixels around on a PC monitor. There is little in the way of greatness in that endeavor. Unless the pixels are worshiping me as a god.

Do your pixels worship you and why do you care if they do or don't? Do they sacrifice photons in your honour? Must the photons be virgins or will photons from degerate atoms do? How do you get degenerate atoms this side of a white dwarf? Is the white dwarf a refugee from the Police Gazette? Does the white dwarf use manacles or does he just tie his victim to the flogging post? This post has been flogged long enough.

	15-05-2002 16:03									#11
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I don't consider it cheating. But I don't do it either. I don't even save frequently. I only ever save before exiting. If I screw up, I'll try and move on, fixing it up. If it can't be fixed, I restart. Since I don't play on huge maps, I don't have anything stopping me from restarting anyway, since it won't take me so long to build back up.

	15-05-2002 16:12									#12
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It's cheating if you're playing as part of a competition, or if you subit your score to a HOF (or brag about the score).

Otherwise, it's just playing a more laid-back and forgiving game than you otherwise would. If you feel more comfortable with such a game than the more intense game you'll have where each mistake counts, then do it. It doesn't hurt anyone.

	15-05-2002 16:13									#13
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I dont see anything wrong with it, unless of cource you edit to save game file.

	15-05-2002 16:28									#14
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I reload under 2 circumstances:

- when the game freezes, which happens sometimes, when I drag a unit with the mouse over the screen borders
- when I hit the wrong button, for instance I sent a unit in a direction I didn't want to and the mistake can't be corrected by the next turn or similar. This happens very seldom, and I reload only if nothing of importance happened during the wrong move, like discovering enemy units or so. This principle has cost me a lot of scouts already. Oh well, they're cheap.

Reloading to improve combat results or to fix poor tactical or strategical decisions I consider cheating. I avoid this in most cases, and even if I do it sometimes, I play "what would have been, if..." for a while (for learning purposes) and abandon the game after it. No game I ever finished had a reloading far from the 2 described circumstances.

	15-05-2002 16:39									#15
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A year and a half of civ2 MP has taught me reasonable dexterity and speed with keyboard unit moving etc and I've learned to live with the occasional wrong unit move and other mistakes. So I never reload for anything (unless the game crashes).

	15-05-2002 17:04									#16
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quote: Originally posted by theEntity It's cheating if you're playing as part of a competition, or if you subit your score to a HOF (or brag about the score). Otherwise, it's just playing a more laid-back and forgiving game than you otherwise would. If you feel more comfortable with such a game than the more intense game you'll have where each mistake counts, then do it. It doesn't hurt anyone.

I agree completely with this sentiment. The only person you're "cheating" in a single player game is yourself, and if you feel no qualms about it, go ahead.

Having said that, there are in fact times when I feel no qualms about returning to a previous save. I'll also save and try something crazy just to see if it works - more like experimentation than actual strategic decision making. I have turned the auto-save off to speed up the game, so if something bad happens and I haven't saved in awhile, I just deal with it.

	15-05-2002 17:26									#17
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Abandon the game, then reload all you want for experimental purposes. Just don't think you won.

I rarely finish games, so once my goal is reached, or if I fail to reach my goal, I declare an end to the game. At that point, I may reload to find out what might have happened if I had played a different strategy. However, if my goal was to complete Sistine Chapel, and I don't, well then I lost.

	15-05-2002 17:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I reload under 2 circumstances: - when the game freezes, which happens sometimes, when I drag a unit with the mouse over the screen borders - when I hit the wrong button, for instance I sent a unit in a direction I didn't want to and the mistake can't be corrected by the next turn or similar. This happens very seldom, and I reload only if nothing of importance happened during the wrong move, like discovering enemy units or so. This principle has cost me a lot of scouts already. Oh well, they're cheap.

Reloading coz the game crashed is fine - that can't be avoided. Reloading because of a tactical error or you hand 'slipped' on the keyboard isn't.

	15-05-2002 17:55									#19
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Sometimes when I'm clicking around the map to look around, my computer somehow gets the idea that I'm asking the active unit to go where I just clicked. Then the unit moves towards that point (usually half a world away) automatically and as fast as it can. The worst is when I have a lot of active units and forget about that one, until I see it move automatically again. I end up with a knight twelve tiles away from where it should be, or a settler in enemy territory. That's always annoying. I don't usually reload though. On large maps it gets to be just too much to replay five turns.

	15-05-2002 18:01									#20
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Ethelred: you have been right on point in every post in this thread.

Coracle, I can't decide if you should be playing Civ2 or SMAC. Probably SMAC.

(Mind you, that's not a dig. SMAC is a great game. It introduced borders and civ traits, separated workers from settlers, had an inventive and fun tech tree with great quotes from "the datalinks..." The only problem was with the colors. Oh well.)

	15-05-2002 18:16									#21
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You folks have covered this pretty well. Basically, if you're playing the game involving just you and the computer, do what fits your personality. If you're playing a tournament or GOTM, don't do it, unless the game freezes/crashes.

	15-05-2002 18:33									#22
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Reloading coz the game crashed is fine - that can't be avoided. Reloading because of a tactical error or you hand 'slipped' on the keyboard isn't.

As I said, I deny reloading for tactical mistakes. But have you ever tried to (P)lant forest on your own territory, or similar? I usually don't reload in most of these situations either. Only if they happened in the beginning of the turn and nothing (especially no combat etc.) has happened yet, I consider to redo it with the autosave. This is even conform with the quite strict CFC tournament rules.

	15-05-2002 18:45									#23
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If you plan on playing MP in the future, you might as well learn how to play without reloading. Deal with your mistakes. Consider it a learning experience. Plus, it makes the game more interesting.

On the other hand, if you are playing for fun, do whatever you need to in order to maximize your entertainment. That is what games are all about. But, if you plan on playing a tournament game, or boasting about your success... reloading is cheating

	15-05-2002 19:15									#24
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the only time i've reloaded is if rome calls me on the civ-o-phone and says "what a cute little civilization you have. t'would be a shame if something happens to it." and demands a tech or gold. i know that by telling him to shove it, he'll declare war. i always tell him to shove it anyway, and then reload. i can't resist trying to call their bluffs every time, even though it always fails.

if i just get a game and am still a beginner, i'll reload for experimental purposes.

	15-05-2002 19:55									#25
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Its cheating, but its a good way to learn from mistakes too. I did it once because the default for holding UN elections is YES and I wasn't paying attention and voted when I didn't want to. Its like golf really. If your only hurting yourself it doesn't matter, however if your playing for competition your hurting others and it does matter.

	15-05-2002 19:58									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle BTW, there is nothing I can do to stop a city flipping to me by reloading. I have asked many times to be able to totally toggle off that Culture Flipping crap, be it regarding cities or borders.

If you don't want the city - just say no. You don't have to take the foreign city that wants to flip.

	15-05-2002 19:59									#27
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If you want to learn from your mistakes, reload saves AFTER the game is over. Whether it'j just you vs computer, tournament, or whatever, the only reason to reload is because of a crash or freeze, You're just cheating yourself otherwise. Ming has a point - it's good practice for multi-player.

Reload & learn after the game is over.

	15-05-2002 20:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ming But, if you plan on playing a tournament game, or boasting about your success... reloading is cheating

On tournaments, you have to observe the tournament rules. And in the CFC tournaments for instance, they say:

quote: Most importantly, it is not allowed to reload. Only when the game crashes or you accidentally press the wrong button you may continue from an autosave, but otherwise never.

I also played my tournament games without reloading (far from once in the GOTM6, when my game froze on a mouse drag as described above), but if anyone said even officially, that he reloaded, because he pressed the wrong button, you hardly can call him a cheater. I find this rule also not very good for a tournament, but as far as it stands, reloading on wrong button is allowed. May be, this is about to change, who knows.

	15-05-2002 21:40									#29
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When I first started playing Civ (civ, civ2, civ3), I reloaded quite a bit. It was an efficient way to learn from my mistakes, seeing how results differed from the paths I chose. As I learn more about the game, the less I have to reload, and eventually it gets to a point where I never reload unless it's because I saved to quit.

I don't think it's more of a "it's cheating" problem, it's just that it makes it more challenging not correcting the mistakes you make. Besides, sometimes the turns take so long, it would be absolutely heinous to replay from a few turns back.

	15-05-2002 22:27									#30
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I definitely feel the game is "tainted" if I save and reload. I feel much prouder of games that were "clean", as in no reloading.

Not saving makes it feel so much more real and exciting! Also it gives the possiblity of having actual serious defeats, which actually are memorable and make the game more interesting.

My first game, I lost my cool elite Musketeer army, which I was very excited to have. I pushed them too far forward, and they died on a hill adjacent to an enemy city. The whole thing broke my forces, and I had to make peace. The whole game all I could think about was the lost army, on that darn hill ... it was like a Stalingrad kind of. (Of course I made up for it, centuries later ... renamed the city Fallen Army or something.)

With saving, no cool, memorable defeat stories to come back from ... only guaranteed victories.