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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
Well what does he think eg "Deutsch-land" or "Slovenija" means ? That does not automatically mean that other groups are discriminated against.
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The situation of arab Israelis is a separate issue.
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One might say that arab Israelis are discriminated in education funding , and the funding of local authorities , the only two things that are separate between the communities. on the first issue : Arabs are not obliged to study in an "arab" school . They can study in a "jewish" school , as well, It's all a matter of choice. Of course , they still mostly go to the arab ones , where they're sent by their parents, who want them to speak arab fluently , etc. The arab system has less money in it , but It doesn't mean arab students are forced to learn in worse conditions. It's their parents that make that choice. In local authorities, the problem is that most arab societies are relatively far from the center of the country. Jewish societies that also are peripherial recieve less money as well, not to mention the fact that many arabs live in mixed cities.
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Same for the german or russian "diaspora". A right of return is another matter, but the argument is silly in that context.
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yeah, kinda agree. But I am not quite sure that grandchildren of people who lived here can return here. I am not sure their grandparents were citizens , they'd have citizenship...so does the right of return apply?
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Shame is that in all the nonsense, there is an interesting point about the Barak proposals. I'd agree that it was a brilliant PR coup to sell it on x% of land, and ignore the pesky little detail of whether this thingie would have been a "state".
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actually, this is a rather rare arguement. I am quite certain that it would be a state. There is no point of going half the way. That wouldn't make us peace with arab countries.
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Ecowiz Returns
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Portugal
Aug 2001
time: 05:19
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The matter of education you pointed out, Dalgetti is becoming increasingly important, and can make much of the diference when you inted to integrate the islamic israellis in you community. Many recent theories point out that the better way to, in time, reduce social inequality is throug equal access to education and, through that and no job discrimination, equal acess to high remuneration jobs. If you find any particular rule (like: we do not sponsor schools that teach arab) to exclude some people from higher quality education, you actually are creating a social barrier with generational effects.
On the other hand, all this questioning of Israelli democracy is simply BS! If you mind, please try to imagine yourselves discussing this same question when Mr. Rabin was Prime Minister of Isreal. It is easy to see that most accusations would be disregarded.
Now, I suggest you to turn your eyes to the Palestinian effort to have a seemingly democratic regime. The comparison is very instructive.
That's why I have so much hope in the Israelli democracy (and sometimes am more demanding of the Israelli position). We actually can expect more from them. The Palestinians have really much more ground to cover before becoming a democratic state(hopefully a secular one).
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
- Israeli control over the Jordan valley, maybe transitionary
- Israeli security sectors ("cantonization")
- reserved Israeli security powers beyond that (may have been dropped in later proposals)
- related, Israeli control over most water supplies
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-security sectors? what security sectors ? with most ( more than 95% ) of theland of the west bank going to the palestinians , no place for "cantonization" or whatever.
-Jordan valley : once again, the same response.( it constitutes more than 10% of the west bank ) . my personal view on that is that I am letting it go , despite the fact that if we take the position of some of our anti-israeli personel here, this land is one of the lands that belong to the jews the most. The place was deserted before that. ( it's almost a desert , the Israeli side of the border, despite being near a miniscule river. )
With palestinians having sovereignity , I don't think that Israel would be even able to practice control over water resources. The sad thing is, that as been seen already in the nineties , all the pals did was to **** to the pool they were drinking from, literally, polluting ground waters with sewage. That's their choice to make, but we drink the same water as well.  .
They won't have an army . But who needs tanks when you have 16 year olds ?! grr.
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I doubt there is a clear legal solution to this, so it has to be a political decision anyway.
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as in all other issues in global politics. Good to see some one that recognizes that fact. (Not commenting on is it right or wrong. this is a wholly new debate )
Ecowiz : our universities have a fair share of Arab students, believe me. I live in a mixed city , and we have two univercities in here, one of which is actually pretty good and well known, the Israeli Institute of Technology ( I am joining   ) . In both there are both arab and jewish students, and they .. well hate each other's guts.
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One funny thing.... the government subsidies for settlements. Could arab Israelis start their own Israel-subsidised settlement on the Westbank ?
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errmm , I REALLY don't know. 
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:19
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Jewish societies that also are peripherial recieve less money as well, not to mention the fact that many arabs live in mixed cities. |
Exactly.
As you know, just above our houses there was built a new state of the art school - which is used by arab education.
It's 10 times better than any other state school in Haifa.
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If you find any particular rule (like: we do not sponsor schools that teach arab) to exclude some people from higher quality education, you actually are creating a social barrier with generational effects. |
It's not a rule.
However smaller cities, and cummunities which have weaker lobbies get less funding.
But frankly education in Israel sucks on a general level.
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About arab Israelis: one could of course say that the "poorer arab regions" are the result of a policy favouring mostly jewish central areas. No idea whether this is the case or not. |
To some extent it is.
Two other causes are, arab resentment to modernization (which is dying out) since they live in very conservative communities; and intentional worse treatment.
Obviously the intentional part is very bad generally, and only hurts Israel in the long term.
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One funny thing.... the government subsidies for settlements. Could arab Israelis start their own Israel-subsidised settlement on the Westbank ? |
That's actually amusing.
I'm not sure they could. The govt. usually clears settlements which are started on their own.
And I'm sure that if they try to move to existing settlements, then the local comitties could vote them out.
The problem is, that special sorts of populated points do have the right to vote against new occupants. Israel, when founded, was extremely socialistic. We had unique forms of communes, such as kibutzes and worker's communes. And some forms of these communes, due to thier very tight nature, have legal rights to block new occupants.
But it would be illegal to, for instance, block new occupants (legal occupants) to any major city.
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- Israeli control over the Jordan valley, maybe transitionary |
According to what I read, it was indeed transitionary.
So I assume you read all the responses in this thread, and accepted them? Or on the contrary have comments about them?
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:19
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hi ,
well said Sirotnikov , ....but lets not forget that the education the pal's get is the best in the entire arab world , ....and its their choice if they want to use the money that they get , bot from Israel and from abroad , for other things , ....
and the biggest problem is that a small group of pal's control's and forces their will on the others , also , they should start to kick out these foreigners who have nothing to do in Israel , and do nothing else then creating violence , .......
have a nice day
Last edited by panag on 18-05-2002 at 18:38
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:19
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From B'Tselem - an Israeli source...
quote:
13.5.02: Land Grab: Israel's Settlement Policy in the West Bank
B'Tselem releases new report:
Settlements are built on 1.7% of West Bank land and control 41.9%
Today, B'Tselem hosted a press conference to release its new report, Land Grab: Israel's Settlement Policy in the West Bank. B'Tselem's researcher, Yehezkel Lein, presented the report and the accompanying map which details the built-up areas and the land reserved for future development of West Bank settlements.
International humanitarian law prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory. An occupying power is also prohibited from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area, unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population or are for urgent military needs. Israel's settlement policy violates these regulations.
B'Tselem's report was published following extensive research and despite difficulties in obtaining information from the Civil Administration. The report makes available to the public for the first time comprehensive information regarding the extent of human rights violations resulting from the establishment of settlements in the West Bank.
The research reveals that while the built-up areas of the settlements constitute only 1.7% of the land in the West Bank, the municipal boundaries are over three times as large: 6.8%. Regional councils constitute an additional 35.1%. Thus, a total of 41.9% of the area in the West Bank is controlled by the settlements.
The report presents the various mechanisms by which Israel's governments have taken control of land and have encouraged Israeli citizens to move to settlements. These techniques include the de facto annexation of the settlements to Israel, the planning system which invests significant resources to expand the settlements, and the granting of numerous economic incentives intended to raise the standard of living in the settlements. For example, in the year 2000, Jewish local councils in the West Bank received grants from the government averaging sixty-five percent more those received by their counterparts inside Israel. Settlement regional councils received grants averaging 165% more than their counterparts in Israel.
Given that the settlements are illegal, and in light of the myriad human rights violations that they cause, B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to work to dismantle all of the settlements. From a human rights perspective, there is no other conclusion that can be reached, said Yehezkel Lein, author of the report, at today's press conference.
Until the process of evacuation is undertaken, B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to take a number of interim steps to minimize the violation of human rights and international law. Among other steps, the Israeli government should:
Halt all new construction in the settlements;
Halt the planning and construction of new by-pass roads;
Return to Palestinian communities all the non-built-up areas attached to settlements and regional councils;
Halt the policy of providing incentives to encourage Israeli citizens to move to the settlements, and allocate resources instead to encourage settlers to relocate to within the borders of the State of Israel.[/b] |
Attached is a map of Settlements
See how they are slowing spreading like an evil cancer, choking the Palestinian's freedom of movement in their own country!
I reiterate, how can anyone with a clear conscience condemn Yasser Arafat for throwing out Barak's 'Generous'  offer...!!?
No one can be expected to roll over and take it up the arse like the Palestinians have for 50+ years and not fight back - perhaps the clue that they are more than willing to die fighting for their country should ring alarm bells!?
Fact is their life is a living death due to the depredations of their Apartheid Zionist 'Masters'...
'Beasts on two legs' anyone? That's what Menachim Begin called them when he and Sharon set out to kill almost 20,000 in Lebanon...
Interesting how those that were once persecuted for so long, have now became the persecutors...
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
The research reveals that while the built-up areas of the settlements constitute only 1.7% of the land in the West Bank, the municipal boundaries are over three times as large: 6.8%. Regional councils constitute an additional 35.1%. Thus, a total of 41.9% of the area in the West Bank is controlled by the settlements. |
I'm curious... can you explain the "regional council" part?
I had a look at the map... it's hard to make out some of the colors - but it seems the settlements are black, whereas the palestinian urban areas are dark brown, which can make them hard to tell apart, unless they are right next to each other, where you can see the difference.
In any event, the more important question is: what does this have to do with the Barak proposal? Was he offering 95% of the West Bank, while counting the settlements (including the municpal borders and regional council jurisdictions) as part of Israel, thus meaning that 95% was really more like 50% or less? If so, the claims that the proposal was insulting make a certain amount of sense. If, however, the proposal really offered 95% of the West Bank, while keeping 5% in and around the settlements... it may not have been THE peace deal, but it was an offer which merited a counterproposal and some negotiations.
-Arrian
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,
that is 100% correct , exept on the ones that are "converts" , but some times after a DNA sample it reveals that they had "Jewish" ancestor's , ...........there are other unique DNA codes aswell for the Jews aswell .
however there are people who are Jewish and they can prove it for a real long time-period and they have no such coding , .....
its like Israel , every Jew is an Israeli (or can become on) but not every Israeli is a Jew , ............
have a nice day |
So panag...
707 is bitahon ha nemalim, but it was disbanded in 75. So I guess we're talking about something different.
Madan is madrich noar. This is who you was?
Or are we talking about the Mitkan Adam guys?
Last edited by Eli on 21-05-2002 at 22:25
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli
So panag...
707 is bitahon ha nemalim, but it was disbanded in 75. So I guess we're talking about something different.
Madan is madrich noar. This is who you was?
Or are we talking about the guys in Mitkan Adam? |
hi ,
your are a bit off , but okay , you shall see in a year , .....then there should be job in home-country free , .....bad pay , but who knows , promotion is in the air ,.......;
we work for the ja , .....i hate "chinese" , .grrrrrr
have a nice day
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:19
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There is only one choice left, and it matches the picture.
I might be working with pretty close cooperation to Mispan Modiin if I get the unit I want.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:19
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To clear the dark clouds of stupidity, the 20K that died in Lebanon, have died as a result of the civil war between Fatah lead by no other than Yassir Arafat and the christians.
Infact, the christians welcomed IDF since they protected them from being massacared by Fatah, like what hapenned in Damour:
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In 1976, Damour was a thriving Lebanese Christian town of 25,000 people, with five churches, seven schools and a public hospital. The Muslim families living in the town enjoyed its services and the good neighborliness of their Christian friends.
As documented in The rise and fall of the PLO by Gillian Becker, all this changed on January 9 of that year, when Yasser Arafat's terrorists came calling. After shelling the town, the Palestinians entered at nightfall and massacred 50 men, women and children in their first orgy of violence, according to eye-witness reports. Over the next two weeks they were to kill more than 500 more.
Witnesses told of gang rapes of hundreds of girls and women, of children being forced to watch as their parents were murdered, and of the horrific mutilation of the bodies of victims, among them many children.
The rest of the inhabitants were driven out, and the PLO turned the ruined town into "one of the main PLO centers for the promotion of international terrorism."
"The Church of St Elias was turned into a repair garage for PLO vehicles and a range for shooting practice, with targets painted on the eastern wall of the nave." They would be there for many years.
On June 21, 1982, the New York Times correspondent David Shipler reported:
"For nearly seven years, until the Israeli army attacked and captured it last week, the town was inaccessible to its own people. The Palestine Liberation Organization made it a stronghold, using the churches as firing ranges and armories. A huge new church., left unfinished by the Maronite Christians in 1967, is covered with spray-painted Palestinian nationalist slogans and plastered with posters. On one inside wall, where the altar was to have stood, two bulls-eyes can be seen, the stone in and around them roughened by bullet holes.
"Above them, where a cross would have hung, a triangular PLO symbol is painted in the Palestinian national colors of red, green, black and white, framing a silhouette of a rifle and a hammer. High in the belfry, a concrete cross has obviously been used as a target over the years, for it is chipped and gouged in a thousand places." |
The 20,000 people mostly died in massacares comitted by PLO and Arafat. They occured together with Israel's invation as Arafat was trying to secure his position. After all, he brought rise to the civil war in Lebanon, and hoped to build Arafatistan there.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
Arrian: Seeing as even the Palestinian maps of Barak's proposal show settlements uprooted and Palestinian control over about 80-90% of the West Bank, it's pretty clear that he wasn't excluded those areas from the statistics.
Che:
At a philsophical level I suppose you could argue that since this is "racist" in that it commits the government to defend a particular group, but in practice it does not create legal discrimination against any group. BTW, I notice that leftists complain a lot about Israel racism, which seems mostly to be confined to immigration policy and semantics, yet rarely do I even hear a peep about racism and oppression which is rampant amongst Israel's enemies. Apparently it is of greater concern that Israel calls itself a Jewish state than that the Syrian government is drilling holes in people's insides with hot iron rods. |
Natan, I personally am sick and tired of leftist hatred of Israel and the United States. One simply cannot discuss issues with them logically. The are wedded to their belief system to a degree that facts and logic have no place. They believe propaganda and dismiss evidence. They cannot accept a conclusion logically arrived at if it inconsistent with their belief system.
I am very concerned that the EU leftists here on Apolyton represent the majority view in the EU. If they do, then the EU is very far gone down the path of becoming enemies of the U.S. They have already sided with the blood-soaked Arafat. Soon they will side with that heroic leader of martyrs, the fugitive Osama bin Laden. French leftists, not Pakistan, will give Osama the bomb to use against New York. When Manhattan is fried, leftist Europeans will join their Islamic brethern to errupt joyously into the streets with Bush is the anti-christ banners, loudly proclaiming their solidarity with bin Laden and Arafat as true leaders in the struggle against decandent capitalism.
Mark my words.
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17-05-2002 15:22
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