23-05-2002 01:20									#91
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Az ten li lehavin, sherateta be mispan modiin?

	23-05-2002 01:36									#92
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ned: Israel is not only the strong party, they are also the aggressor. (bold added for emphasis). Basically, they are stochastic variables.

hi ,

come and see for your self , ........the aggressor , ........right , ....

have a nice day

	23-05-2002 02:33									#93
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Siro, well, then you do see the similiarities between the JP and Pravda?

No not at all.

Pravda was written and controlled by the govt.

JP is private opinions of private people. It's like claiming that American media is govt. controlled.

Are you aware that 80% of the information in your news paper is infact given by the government?

quote: Regarding Al-Quida, you again show that you don't get journalism. If FBI claims they have linked the terrorists to AQ, then that is what the NYT reports. Not that the terrorists ARE linked to the AQ, but that the FBI claim they are.

You are very naive.

Journalism is never detached from the popular opnion and especially the writer's opinion.

Do you really want to me go over with you over classic examples of how BBC mask their opinions as facts and present Palestinian claims as an absolute truth?

Furthermore, it appears that you are not familiar with investigative journalism. In Israel, journalists don't sit and wait for the govt. to tell them stuff so that they quote it. They go out and investigate.

For instance, the most effective reporter on arab issues on channel 2, Ehud Yaari, has dozens of sources inside and outside the PA, Hamas, Jihad and Fatah. Also, unlike western reporters, he knows Arabic and follows arabic channels by satellite.

Therefore I trust him more than I trust some obscure quote.

Furthermore, I have access to things you don't see on CNN. I have infact seen live footage of Palestinians faking burial processes. I have seen live footage of the encitement.

I read reports by impartial agencies on the topic of encitement in Palestinian schools and such.

I have read translations and ranscripts from Arab press where they sometimes talk honestly about the goal and form of this intifada.

www.memri.org
www.edume.org
www.imra.org

You only rely on the BBC which is exactly what you claim the JP is, but worse.

quote: BTW, just out of curiosity, when was the last time the JP reported something bad about the current occupation of palestine?

I have no idea, since I don't read it.

	23-05-2002 02:38									#94
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Ned, european anti-americanism predates sept 11, and most of europe were solidly behind US in it's 'war on terror'.

the pre-9/11 issues were global warming, the ABM treay, trade issues and foreign policy.

AFAIK, the ABM treaty has no right-left affiliation. Global warming likewise, that is only a question of intelligence. Bush is acting with the intelligence of a five year old, and europe does not appreciate that.

In the trade issues, Bush has actually adopted the traditional philosophy of the left, protecting domestic production of steel etc with tariffs, while the EU has adopted the philosphy of the right, going to court to assure 'fair play'.

And finally, foreign policy. I do agree that many europeans have a tendency to think that the US only does what is best for the US. I don't wuite agree with that, as I can't for the life of me come up with anything the US coul have gained by intervening in Somalia and Kosovo. But it is hard to refute the two solid facts that while the US opposed the Iraqi aggression in Quwait (supposedly to save the US oil supply), they are solidly behind Israeli aggression in palestine. the hypocrisy rankles, regardless of political affiliation.

Furthermore, while the US claims to fight for 'democracy' and 'freedom', they support coups in pakistan and indonesia becuase they believe the dictators have a better change of battling the AQ, and not to mention the venezuelan debaucle just recently. Claims that the US must support Israel becuase they are the 'sole democracy in the ME' sounds quite hollow in the light...

	23-05-2002 02:38									#95
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I assume the JP is the Jerusalem Post? Whatever, it's a right-wing rag. I've read it, and decided it's about on par with the NY Post. Right wing and militant. So what? There are right wing militant people in the media. There are also conspiracy-theory lefties out there (see: The Guardian). This is why it's important to know your sources, and sample various ones.

Basically, Siro's right on this one.

-Arrian

	23-05-2002 02:42									#96
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quote: You say, CyberGnu, that you are a rightist. However your simplistic condemnation of powerful countries as always being in the wrong regardless of anything else causes me to doubt to your credentials.

?

I don't know where you got this from...

I support a US invasion of Iraq, I've never claimed otherwise. I have a very simple philosophy: Aggression should never be allowed to pay off. I'm against Israel and Iraq for the exact same reason.

	23-05-2002 02:46									#97
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quote: You say to my statements concerning the left are offensive not only to the left but to humanity. I find in contrast many statements on this board that are both anti-Israel and anti-United States to be similarly offensive.

Ned, it would be offensive if I claimed that american support Israel because all americans are neo-nazis.

You want to reduce the debate to pro-palestinian = left winger. That is what is offensive. Not offensive in the same way as calling your mother a hamster, if you see what I mean.

quote: It seems to me that the left has become racist. I find it inconceivable that the left the defends mass murder as legitimate means for advancing political ends.

? Are you going the way of Natan now, where a statement such as 'I oppose genocide' somehow makes you a nazi?

	23-05-2002 02:47									#98
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Panang, your invariable answer to thse threads seems to be 'come here and see how horrible war is'. It doesn't really make any difference though, since Israel can end the war whenever it wants. If you really think war is horrible, start calling for a retreat from the occupied territories!!!!!!!!!

	23-05-2002 02:49									#99
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu ? Are you going the way of Natan now, where a statement such as 'I oppose genocide' somehow makes you a nazi?

hi ,

Natan , please explain , .....
9 out of 10 these words are out of there context , ......

have a nice day

and dont we ALL oppose genocide , ...............

	23-05-2002 02:50									#100
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Natan, I did actually show that. I went through those 19 articles, and I do actually understand enough german to make out wha tthe articles were about. Die Welt has never written anything like what was reported in the JP.

That the printed version is different from the internet one is a feeble attempt to hide behind a wish. I don't know a single western paper where content changes... Especially a story as high profile as that one would be.

	23-05-2002 02:52									#101
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quote: I'm complaining about both leftists on Apolyton and in general. People who support military action against Israel but oppose action against Iraq, for example.

OK, so that one doesn't cover me.

quote: Your second argument isn't really relevant, because it relates to how facts are presented ("The FBI said '_______' " vs. " '_________' " according to security sources") rather than the actual facts and sources.

assuming this is from my post to Siro?

The difference is that 'the FBI said' isn't presented as fact. It is made very clear from the beginning. From what I can tell, israeli media take 'security sources say' as gospel, and from these threads it is clear that Siro does likewise.

	23-05-2002 02:52									#102
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Panang, your invariable answer to thse threads seems to be 'come here and see how horrible war is'. It doesn't really make any difference though, since Israel can end the war whenever it wants. If you really think war is horrible, start calling for a retreat from the occupied territories!!!!!!!!!

hi ,

no , come to see who does what , ....
come to see what happens really , ....
Israel can end the war , .....;sure , give the military and GO , ...
AND there are to many countries who come to tell us what to do , ....while they have enough to do in their country , .....
also , the PALS dont want peace , ...............

occupied , ....ahem , liberated , ......

have a nice day

	23-05-2002 02:55									#103
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Natan, I did actually show that. I went through those 19 articles, and I do actually understand enough german to make out wha tthe articles were about. Die Welt has never written anything like what was reported in the JP. That the printed version is different from the internet one is a feeble attempt to hide behind a wish. I don't know a single western paper where content changes... Especially a story as high profile as that one would be.

hi ,

check again , .......;there is even an online translater with their library , ...........

have a nice day

	23-05-2002 03:00									#104
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Cyber - wasn't simply retreat - that's the whole point.

You want to think it would be simple - but it isn't.

We retreated from Lebanon, and now we're being shelled every couple of days. So we have to respond every now and then.


The point is, that a big part of the palestinians, espcially those in power now, the Tunis generation, still haven't accepted Israel as a legitimate being here, and aren't ready for a final agreement.

If we withdraw now, we simply relocate the battle front from the settlements to Israel proper.

Obviously the occupation is doing Israel little good. But it can't be stopped in a "poof".

The difference is that Israel has laid the foundations for a peace plan:
Israel has taught it's people since 1993 for compromise and now there's 60-70% support for the Saudi proposal.

In Palestine however, the PLO did the exact opposite - they laid the foundations for a terrorist state. Instead of fixing the camps, they perpetuated their status.

Instead of teaching about coexistance and compromise, they are teaching about how all of Palestine is theirs, and how the Zionists will be gone, and how Martyrdom is the way.

Martyrdom is existant not because of opression, but because the governmetn has made it so popular. Notice that prior to 1993 there were almost no such suicide bombers.

Why did they appear?
The palestinians only gained.
They gained self rule in many areas.
They gained their own leadership.
They gained their own government.

And so on and so forth.

But, since 1993, the whole palestinian media is busy preparing people for a "war of liberation" which will be fought not over the territories, but over "historical palestine".

That's why it is the PA as the agressor and not Israel.

	23-05-2002 03:04									#105
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quote: israeli media take 'security sources say' as gospel, and from these threads it is clear that Siro does likewise.

What you fail to understand, is that because all the population is serving in the IDF, there isn't such animosity and distrust in security sources.

Mostly since, if they are lying, I have a friend or a cousin who works there and can tell me the truth.

	23-05-2002 03:50									#106
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Cyber, after 9/11, I believe that Europe has a better understanding of the United States position on a limited ABM capability. MAD has no utility against terrorist groups.

Regardless of the existence or degree of global warming, the draft Kyoto treaty was flawed. It essentially penalized United States and gave the Third World countries a free ride. At the time it was originally negotiated by Gore, the Senate voted 99-0 against the treaty. Bush was not alone in the United States in disagreeing with the treaty. Not signing was not stupidity, but prudence.

I believe Bush stated that he was signing the steel tariffs to "restore" trade balance. Was this incorrect? Regardless, what he did was not welcomed by a significant number of Republicans.

On the Middle East, the perceptions of the legalities and equities of Europe in America are entirely opposed. Europe clearly views the Israelis as the aggressor. American views the Palestinians as the aggressor. There is a growing view in that the United States that the basis for the different viewpoints is caused by European anti-Semitism. I don't necessarily agree with that view. I believe rather than source of the disagreement is exactly you said it was. Israel stronger than the Palestinians. That necessarily makes them the aggressor.

This extreme bias against the use of force even in self-defense is deeply rooted in leftism. No wonder the Dutch troops had no idea of what to do at Sebrencia.

	23-05-2002 04:40									#107
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quote: That the printed version is different from the internet one is a feeble attempt to hide behind a wish. I don't know a single western paper where content changes...

I know it does for the Jerusalem Post, and I believe it does for other papers as well - unless The Guardian is in the habit of printing articles with four letter words and not just putting them on the internet where standards of decorum are looser. The heading on the Die Welt archive's says "Das Archiv der WELT online beinhaltet alle Artikel, die seit Mai 1995 in der Internetausgabe der WELT erschienen sind." (emphasis added) In fact, they also offer archives of their print edition (in PDF form) which seems like utter redundancy if you are correct.

quote: Especially a story as high profile as that one would be.

Again, I disagree - I saw this same story on American cable news, but it didn't get a high profile. My personal guess is that the story appeared as something other than a regular news article (opinion piece, "magazine section," you know, non-news). After all, if the J'lem post story were a fabrication, there should have been a lawsuit by Die Welt. This is not the sort of thing which just gets made up; if they had wanted to fabricate a story they would have found unfalsifiable sources such as "security officials," "Lebanese sources" or some such.

Besides, this hardly proves the 20% figure of fabrication you invented, nor would discrediting the Jerusalem Post prove that all media besides the New York Times and the BBC are useless.

	23-05-2002 05:14									#108
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Siro:

quote: Martyrdom is existant not because of opression, but because the governmetn has made it so popular. Notice that prior to 1993 there were almost no such suicide bombers. Why did they appear? The palestinians only gained. They gained self rule in many areas. They gained their own leadership. They gained their own government. And so on and so forth.

Apparently you live in a dream world quite far removed t=from ours...

Have you considered seeking out a palestinian and ask him/her about the Oslo accords? Sure, while Israel gave the PA control over some aprts of the palestinian toerritory, Israel at the same time kept expanding the settlements, admitted that they never intended to give up any part of jerusalem, etc etc.

The suicide bombers have sprung up from a population feeling they have nothing left to lose... and if you don't want to understand even a simple fact such as that, there is no way you will ever be able to understand the conflict.

Of course, there still exist the possibility that you very well know why the suicide bombers sacrifice their lifes, but you have choosen to lie about their motives to justify your countryies atrocities... I'm not sure which possibility saddens me the most...

	23-05-2002 05:15									#109
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Panang, what is up with the commas? they are driving me crazy. And I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Please try to write in coherent sentences.

	23-05-2002 05:17									#110
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Siro, that still doesn't make 'security sources' a trustworthy data source. If what they claim is true, they should present evidence. that is how a democracy works.

And if, as you so often claim, the evidence can't be presented because of security concerns, put it to an international tribunal, or even a US investigation. But spurious claims are not worth more than mere propaganda.

	23-05-2002 05:21									#111
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quote: The suicide bombers have sprung up from a population feeling they have nothing left to lose... and if you don't want to understand even a simple fact such as that, there is no way you will ever be able to understand the conflict.

That's absurd. Of course they have plenty to lose - most suicide bombers have jobs and families. Several were engaged to be married. One can bring many instances of those who truly did have nothing to lose who didn't resort to suicide bombings (Bosnian Muslims in the Yugoslav civil war, Kurds fighting the Baath regime in Iraq) and one can bring many examples of suicide bombers who had quite a bit to lose, like the 9/11 hijackers. The bombings are a military and political tactic, they exist because people who are willing to die for their cause are convinced that these are effective. Just because a person has a chance of living a decent life doesn't mean they are unwilling to die for a cause.

	23-05-2002 05:22									#112
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Ned, I personally have a hard time deciding about this ABM thing. There are pros and cons, although I think the mainstream EU complaint is invalid. However, the missile defense is pretty much useless against terrorism anyway...

We can debate the Kyoto somewhere else. You seem to agree, however, that it is not a left-right issue.

Regarding the steel tariffs, the WTO judged the EU to be right, so you can judge for yourself...

	23-05-2002 05:23									#113
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu And if, as you so often claim, the evidence can't be presented because of security concerns, put it to an international tribunal, or even a US investigation. But spurious claims are not worth more than mere propaganda.

Like the US presented its evidence of OBL's involvement in 9/11? Has any country ever done anything like this?

	23-05-2002 05:28									#114
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quote: There is a growing view in that the United States that the basis for the different viewpoints is caused by European anti-Semitism. I don't necessarily agree with that view.

I agree, although in a bit more forceful terms... Blaming EU policy on anti-semitism is just plain lying, and luckily has that wolf been called so many times that even europe has learned to ignore it.

quote: I believe rather than source of the disagreement is exactly you said it was. Israel stronger than the Palestinians. That necessarily makes them the aggressor.

Ned, I jsut told you that I don't think Israel being stronger than the palestinians make them the aggressor, they just happen to be both. Completely independent of each other. Having no relationship. Disconnected facts.

I think your perception of things is scewed, however, by the selfcorrecting nature of a weaker aggressor... Only if the aggression remains are we forced to take a moral stance on it. Thus, extreme leftism usually consider Desert Storm as morally justified, even though the US was the stronger party by far. It is determined by who attacks who, not by who is stronger.

	23-05-2002 05:35									#115
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Natan, fine, find the story for me in Die Welt. I couldn't. I also wrote two emails to the editor of the JP, but never received a reply.

I guess I should have qualified one of my previous sentences: I don't know of a single western media where news content is less on the website than in the printed paper. Electrons are cheap, paper isn't. Many papers add stuff on their website. Not the other way around, however.

	23-05-2002 05:40									#116
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quote: That's absurd. Of course they have plenty to lose - most suicide bombers have jobs and families. Several were engaged to be married. One can bring many instances of those who truly did have nothing to lose who didn't resort to suicide bombings (Bosnian Muslims in the Yugoslav civil war, Kurds fighting the Baath regime in Iraq) and one can bring many examples of suicide bombers who had quite a bit to lose, like the 9/11 hijackers. The bombings are a military and political tactic, they exist because people who are willing to die for their cause are convinced that these are effective. Just because a person has a chance of living a decent life doesn't mean they are unwilling to die for a cause.

What is life worth if you face the prospect of eking out an existance in a camp, depending on alms to sustain you until you die of old age?

What the death of Oslo did was to kill hope. People can endure enormous hardships if they think there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But whn that light is extinguished (in this case by Israel showing that they never intended the palestinians to have their own viable state), hope dies, and desperation sets in.

They tried uprising (intifada). They tried negotiating (oslo). What options do you think they see as being left?

	23-05-2002 05:41									#117
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quote: Like the US presented its evidence of OBL's involvement in 9/11? Has any country ever done anything like this?

You missed the videotape?

	23-05-2002 05:42									#118
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Panang, just occured to me: Have you considered following your own advice and visit the occupied territories?

	23-05-2002 05:47									#119
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quote: What is life worth if you face the prospect of eking out an existance in a camp, depending on alms to sustain you until you die of old age?

Millions of people around the world depend on alms for life, and many more starve, often in camps. For example, there are refugee camps all over the rift valley in Africa, refugee camps in various parts of Europe, and refugee camps in the Arab world for both Palestinians and others. Have you noticed a lot of riots, let alone suicide bombings, by Iraqis in refugee camps in Saudi Arabia? They have even less hope of achieving their goals than the Palestinians do.

quote: What the death of Oslo did was to kill hope. People can endure enormous hardships if they think there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But whn that light is extinguished (in this case by Israel showing that they never intended the palestinians to have their own viable state), hope dies, and desperation sets in. They tried uprising (intifada). They tried negotiating (oslo). What options do you think they see as being left?

Obviously if you view this as a situation in which the Palestinians have to get back all of the West Bank at all costs, then this makes sense. But you should specify that when you say they have lost hope, you don't mean hope of a better life, of better education or social services, of more freedom or economic prosperity, but rather hope of achieving specific political goals. But in that sense, all terrorism results from a loss of hope.

	23-05-2002 06:10									#120
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CyberGnu, IIRC, the reason Arafat walked out of Camp David was because he could not get the Israeli's to agree to a right of return of Palestinians to Israel, and another point, I don't remember exactly, about Jerusalem. I don't believe the settlments were a critical issue. Israel appeared to be willing to abandon most of them in exchange for peace.

If the above is correct, are you saying that Israel is the aggressor because they did not agree to these two points?