22-05-2002 03:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Natan, I personally am sick and tired of leftist hatred of Israel and the United States. One simply cannot discuss issues with them logically. The are wedded to their belief system to a degree that facts and logic have no place. They believe propaganda and dismiss evidence. They cannot accept a conclusion logically arrived at if it inconsistent with their belief system. I am very concerned that the EU leftists here on Apolyton represent the majority view in the EU. If they do, then the EU is very far gone down the path of becoming enemies of the U.S. They have already sided with the blood-soaked Arafat. Soon they will side with that heroic leader of martyrs, the fugitive Osama bin Laden. French leftists, not Pakistan, will give Osama the bomb to use against New York. When Manhattan is fried, leftist Europeans will join their Islamic brethern to errupt joyously into the streets with Bush is the anti-christ banners, loudly proclaiming their solidarity with bin Laden and Arafat as true leaders in the struggle against decandent capitalism. Mark my words.

hi ,

well , Ned , not much to put with it , is there ,....

after they have used the left to be there frontline soldiers , the little that remains shall be put to work as slave's , ..........

Arafat is still on the wanted list in some countries , .....however there is no money on his head like in the states , ......

have a nice day

	22-05-2002 04:26									#62
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quote: Natan, I personally am sick and tired of leftist hatred of Israel and the United States. One simply cannot discuss issues with them logically. The are wedded to their belief system to a degree that facts and logic have no place. They believe propaganda and dismiss evidence. They cannot accept a conclusion logically arrived at if it inconsistent with their belief system.

If you are reffering to our Leftists here on Apolyton, I disagree - they are generally quite willing to discuss specific points in a logical fashion, at least as much as anyone else with an ideology. On leftists at large, I cannot make a reasonable judgement. But I do think there are some double-standards at work in the moral thought of many leftist groups and individuals.

	22-05-2002 05:15									#63
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Ahh, yes, and perpetuated by the notoriously left wing news agencies CNN, FOX, MSNBC, NYT, LATimes, Washington Post, BBC etc etc...

Life sure gets a lot easier if you believe that every news agency that doesn't agree with your views is part of a propaganda campaign, doesn't it?


Now, I realize that this might be hard to understand for someone who is used to Israeli media, where news is what the goverment says is news, but western media employes these people called 'journalists'. The job of these 'journalists' is to find out what the thruth is, and the media only prints that. Since the truth seems to be quite far removied from that the JP reports, I guess there is only two options... All western media is part of a huge conspiracy (which would incorporate a fairly substantial number of the so-called 'self-hating jews), or maybe it could be that the JP is deliberatly lying...

Wake up.

	22-05-2002 05:21									#64
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Cyber, it would be nice if instead of talking out of your ass like you usually do, you would come here and watch the israeli ews.

	22-05-2002 05:22									#65
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Natan, are you referring to this:

quote: Apparently it is of greater concern that Israel calls itself a Jewish state than that the Syrian government is drilling holes in people's insides with hot iron rods.

?

If you can find ANYONE, leftwinger or not, to actually defend the syrians practice of drilling holes in peoples inside, I'd be very interested.

If you start a thread about how horrible this is, you would most likley get one or two 'yep' replies, before the thread dropped to the bottom of the first page... No one contests this.

The reason we see these threads, however, is that there are several israeli apologists who insist on defending Israels crimes... And while we might never get the apologists themselves to reform into moral beings, we might get a yet undecided reader to realize the right path...

	22-05-2002 05:28									#66
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Excellent rebuttal there, siro (no pun intended).

Why don't you do some simple checking. Take todays JP, and try confirming the stories in there, without resorting to sources such as 'IDF spokesman', 'intelligence sources' or 'Israeli radio'.

Since you live there, you might even call the JP yourself and ASK about the sources, and see what you get. From the week when I actually checked the JP each day, I found that roughly 20% of what the palestinians supposedly did was plain lies, about 70% was unsubstantiated, leaving about 10% of real news. Note that I don't equate the substantiated 10% with 'appearing in western media', but referring only to stories with actual sources. However, these stories also correlate very well with I could read in the NYT.

	22-05-2002 05:31									#67
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gnu - you have no idea what really happens here.

why don't you come check?

	22-05-2002 05:33									#68
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gnu- i do the same with international news agencies. and they fail to report most of the things which go on here.

could you please tell me what were the plain lies?

	22-05-2002 05:40									#69
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I'm not reffering to threads on Apolyton, but to the general level of attention recieved in left-wing outlets - i.e., The Nation, the Guardian, etc. In fact, this isn't a phenomenon limited to Israel; the United States and its allies get all the criticism in every conflict and on every issue. Thus Colombian paramilitaries can be demonized while the crimes of the FARC go unnoted, Pinochet is bad while Castro is good, there is some criticism of Saudi Arabia's version of Sharia law but none of the far nastier things going on in say, Sudan, and so on.

	22-05-2002 05:52									#70
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Natan, I never read any of those papers, so I can't really say anything. But who are you referring to then when you say 'the left-wingers here on apolyton'? As far as I know has Che never referred to these papers... Mobious might, but from I can tell does he also read BBC as well...

And I'm personally not a left winger. By european standards I'm hardcore right-wing, by american I'm somewhere in the middle. (Blue dog democrat, if that tells you anything).


Siro, I'd love to visit if you'd sponsor me... My salary goes to rent and trips to visit my gf right now...

Those stories that you say 'does not get reported in western media', thy are, AFAICT, unsubstantitated.

You really don't seem to understand the concepts of journalism. the difference between a newspaper and a goverment media outlet is that a newspaper is supposed to critically evalute the stories, and only print news with actual backing.

A goverment media outlet, on the other hand, prints whatever it can find that will further the cause of the goverment (or, occasionally, the causes of the particular political leaning it supports).

So I can't for the life of me unerstand why you choose to belive that the JP is the word of truth over a reknown instituion such as the NYT. The only reason I can guess at is that you don't want to believe the NYT, since it reveals your country as the oppressor it actually is...

	22-05-2002 05:55									#71
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siro, your name implies that your family migrated from russia, right?

If so, ask your parents if they have a copy of 'pravda' around. compare Pravda to the JP, and you'll see the quite a few similarities...

	22-05-2002 06:06									#72
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Usually the article is from a website like alternet or some other Communist/anarchist website. But it's all working on the same principle, which is that if you discuss only on the crimes of America and its allies, it becomes a lot easier to support (or at least make excuses for) every third world dictator who comes along.

And yes, there are apologists for the Syrian regime - Patrick Seale, for example. And there are certainly apologists for the FARC, Castro, Qaddafi, etc.

You're never going to know anything about the region if your knowledge of it is limited to 1-page summaries (with occasional 4-page human interest stories every few monthes in the magazine section) written by people who have little background inside the region for people who have even less background in it. In fact, much of what journalists report is based on what they get from the local media.

I'm not sure how you came up with those statistics on J'lem post accuracy. I'm particularly interested in how you determined that 20% of the contents were fabrications; since that implies you were able to prove they were false.

	22-05-2002 06:13									#73
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CyberGnu

some points:

the difference between a newspaper and a goverment media outlet is that a newspaper is supposed to critically evalute the stories, and only print news with actual backing.

Supposed being the key word. This used to be more true than it is today.

Because:

A goverment media outlet, on the other hand, prints whatever it can find that will further the cause of the goverment (or, occasionally, the causes of the particular political leaning it supports).

Change the word "goverment" to "Corporate" and you have todays "Western" News outlets.

We must read different NYT papers (although I didn't know there was more than one).

	22-05-2002 06:29									#74
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gnu - my parents and myself as well are very aware of that thank you.

being actual immigrants i think we can evaluate it better than you.

and say, gnu, what sources other than govt. did the press have for this whole al-qaeda business? none?

	22-05-2002 07:24									#75
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CyberGnu, Why is that we see on this forum that Israel killed 20,000 in bombing attacks on Sidon and Tyre and that hundreds of civilians were massacred by the IDF in Jenin. These are examples of pure propaganda asserted as fact by the left.

As to double standards, look how differently the left treats E. Timor and Israel. The facts are similar. In E. Timor, the Portuguese pull out and the Indonesians invade. A struggle ensues which leads to a large loss of life by both sides. It ends with the international community stepping in to end the slaughter and repression. This is held up as a glorious achievement by the left.

The only difference is that the Jews won when the Arabs invaded. But, rather than accept the result, the Arabs have continued to make war on Israel. Israel has longed for peace with the Arabs only to be met with unacceptable demands and further wars.

The aggressors in both cases are those who want to incorporate a separate people into a larger empire, deny them liberty, and to slaughter them at will.

But the left extols the brave struggle of the people of E. Timor while condemning the Jews of Palestine. The double standard is clear.

	22-05-2002 08:30									#76
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Natan, who is Patrick Seale?

However, I'm not quite sure how this pertains to the issue at hand... I responded to your post on the previous page, where you discuss the leftists on this thread. In your post on this page you started referring to other leftist groups. I still don't understand the point of that, since I haven't seen any references to these 'left wing' publications, with the exception of mobius occaisonal links to the guardian. (disclaimer: I have no idea what the political leanings of the guardian are... I'll just take Natans word for it that it is leftist).

	22-05-2002 08:34									#77
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quote: You're never going to know anything about the region if your knowledge of it is limited to 1-page summaries (with occasional 4-page human interest stories every few monthes in the magazine section) written by people who have little background inside the region for people who have even less background in it. In fact, much of what journalists report is based on what they get from the local media.

The NYT has had permanent journalists stationed in Israel for 50 years... BBC likewise.

I think you get a lot better view from a one page summary (which is quite a lot of text if you read one page per day), than if you try to sort through the lies and fabrications of the israeli or palestinian media.

	22-05-2002 08:36									#78
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quote: I'm not sure how you came up with those statistics on J'lem post accuracy. I'm particularly interested in how you determined that 20% of the contents were fabrications; since that implies you were able to prove they were false.

remember the story where they gave DieWelt as a source, and DieWelt never wrote a story like that? That was the most prominent, but far the only one...

	22-05-2002 08:44									#79
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Prometheus:
umm, you only had one point, right?

I don't quite get it, however. Are you actually claiming that the NYT is biased, and if so towards what? (I personally think that it is biased in a pro-Israel fashion, based on the images it chooses to display. In the last weeks they have displayed graphic images of bleeding israelis, but only left cursory mentions of murdered palestinians... This, however, is not the issue. Regardless of whether the NYT is biased towards Israel or not, I firmly believe that if the NYT writes something negative about the palestinians, it is researched, evaluated and within reasonable doubt true).

And what does corporate bias have to do with anything? I'm not sure whether it is true or not (I suspect it isn't...), but I just can't connect it iwht the ME situation.

	22-05-2002 08:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu remember the story where they gave DieWelt as a source, and DieWelt never wrote a story like that? That was the most prominent, but far the only one...

Are you talking about the story about the father and child who were caught by a brickwall between a battle between Palestinian militants and the IDF during the early days of the current Intifada? IIRC, DieWelt actually did write a story on that.

	22-05-2002 08:55									#81
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Siro, well, then you do see the similiarities between the JP and Pravda?

And yet you choose to believe the JP?


Regarding Al-Quida, you again show that you don't get journalism. If FBI claims they have linked the terrorists to AQ, then that is what the NYT reports. Not that the terrorists ARE linked to the AQ, but that the FBI claim they are. The word of a goverment mouthpiece is news, and can be reported as is, since the report is not about the fact itself, but only what the goverment mouthpiece claims.

However, if some yokel in connecticut claims that he has footage of Bin Ladin talking to Saddam Hussein, the NYT would most likely not report this without actually checking whether it is true. and, like a selfrespecting media, it would also report that the claim was false.


BTW, just out of curiosity, when was the last time the JP reported something bad about the current occupation of palestine?

	22-05-2002 09:05									#82
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Dino, nope. There was a story a while ago about how the AQ had sent 50 soldiers to the PLO. It made first page headlines in the JP, and the only reference was to Die Welt. Die Welt had never written anything like this.

	22-05-2002 09:07									#83
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Ned, there is no double standard involved. Pretty much everyone in the entire world apart from the US has realized that Israel is not only the strong party, they are also the aggressor.

Thus, the situation in E. Timor and Palestine are very much alike... Something you should consider next time you defend an Israeli atrocity.

	22-05-2002 09:52									#84
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quote: Ned, there is no double standard involved. Pretty much everyone in the entire world apart from the US has realized that Israel is not only the strong party, they are also the aggressor.

CyberGnu, Strength does not equate to being the aggressor. This simplistic formula would me that the U.S. is always the aggressor.

However, this does appear to be exactly how the left thinks.

	22-05-2002 10:35									#85
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Ned:

Israel is not only the strong party, they are also the aggressor. (bold added for emphasis). Basically, they are stochastic variables.

	22-05-2002 10:44									#86
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This whole 'left' business is worrying me. Is this just a new version of labeling the opposition anti-semite? If someone thinks that Israel is responsible for its own actions, they are labeled left-winger, and therefore incapable of making their own decision based on morality?

While I completely agree that most leftwingers are sadly distanced from reality, I think the assumptions visible in especially Neds post are offensive not only to leftwingers in particular, but to humanity in general.

Should we reduce the debate to 'left wingers support the palestinians because they are the underdog, and right-wingers support Israel because they are essentially fascists'?

And how does that deal with me, who is ideologically right-wing, but still think that justice is a valuable concept?

	22-05-2002 22:04									#87
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bumpelibump

	22-05-2002 23:06									#88
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu This whole 'left' business is worrying me. Is this just a new version of labeling the opposition anti-semite? If someone thinks that Israel is responsible for its own actions, they are labeled left-winger, and therefore incapable of making their own decision based on morality? While I completely agree that most leftwingers are sadly distanced from reality, I think the assumptions visible in especially Neds post are offensive not only to leftwingers in particular, but to humanity in general. Should we reduce the debate to 'left wingers support the palestinians because they are the underdog, and right-wingers support Israel because they are essentially fascists'? And how does that deal with me, who is ideologically right-wing, but still think that justice is a valuable concept?

CyberGnu, on the way into work today I was listening to the Bill O'Riley show. The topic was why Europe has become so anti-American. Callers from Europe provided a long list grievances Europeans have with the United States. Everyone of these is a pet leftists issue. What conclusions are we in United States to draw from this?

You say, CyberGnu, that you are a rightist. However your simplistic condemnation of powerful countries as always being in the wrong regardless of anything else causes me to doubt to your credentials.

You say to my statements concerning the left are offensive not only to the left but to humanity. I find in contrast many statements on this board that are both anti-Israel and anti-United States to be similarly offensive. It seems to me that the left has become racist. I find it inconceivable that the left the defends mass murder as legitimate means for advancing political ends.

There is obviously a major gulf between Europe and United States that is growing. European leftism is the reason for the growing division. From the European point of view, the problem, of course, is not Europe but the United States, particularly its increasing willingness to use force the its own defense. This seems to be the same problem Europe has with Israel.

New York was attacked, not Paris. It is the Israeli people are blown up, not Europeans.

The Russians and Indians both understand and support America and Israel because they too have directly experienced terrorist acts.

CyberGnu, if you have any other explanation for the growing divide between Europe and United States, I would like to hear it.

	23-05-2002 01:13									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Cyber, it would be nice if instead of talking out of your ass like you usually do, you would come here and watch the israeli ews.

hi ,

most people like to stay in their homes , with their beer , their comp , ......

they dont know what it is to sleep in a bunker every night , they dont know what it is if a guy blows himself up , .....and you see it because you was drinking your cup of coffee 100 yards away , ....

they dont live in fear , yet a lot of people put the "zap" on us , ....

their are student programs , they even give credits , ....why dont some of them come and see , we would happely put something together , ......with maximum security , .......

so far only two guys from apolyton are going , ...so , who is coming also , ......

have a nice day

	23-05-2002 01:20									#90
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Cyber, you never showed that story to be false - you claimed that a search on the website did not reveal any articles, while my search found 19; neither of us knew German well enough to be sure. Besides which, the internet and print content of a newspaper are often not identical, and I saw the story on American TV news as well.

I'm complaining about both leftists on Apolyton and in general. People who support military action against Israel but oppose action against Iraq, for example.

Your second argument isn't really relevant, because it relates to how facts are presented ("The FBI said '_______' " vs. " '_________' " according to security sources") rather than the actual facts and sources.