16-05-2002 07:38									#1
	Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars Suffering from ads?

Anyone care to deconstruct this article?
And FYI the author is Jewish.

Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13087

If what we see in Israel is democracy, then what does fascism look like? In a world such as this, where words have lost all meaning, we might as well just burn all the dictionaries.

	16-05-2002 08:28									#2
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Good article

	16-05-2002 09:22									#3
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Excellent article!

Again it exposes Zionism as a racist doctrine and Israel as a fascist state!

The Generous Offer

1) The maintenance of most Jewish settlements in the territories

2) Restriction of the Palestinian state to the worst land, devoid of its own water supply

3) Cutoff at numerous chokepoints by Israeli security.

The one that has been described variously (without any acknowledgement of the inconsistency) as having offered the Palestinians either 93 percent, or is it 95 percent or maybe 96 percent or perhaps 98 percent of the West Bank and Gaza.

To do this Israel would have to...

1) Erect the fences in such a manner as to incorporate at least one-quarter of the territories into Israel, so as to subsume the settlements. So not 93 percent, or 96 or 98, but at best 75 percent, and still on the worst land.

2) Furthermore, the fences would slice up Jerusalem and restrict Arab access to the Holy Basin and the Old City: a direct swipe at Muslims who seek access on a par with their fellow descendants of Abraham.

Such a “solution” would mean the final loss for the Palestinians of all but 17 percent of their pre-Israel territory!!!

Who here, can with any clear conscience claim that Arafat was wrong to reject this INSULT?


BTW anyone interested in further reading from Jewish sources should try...

1) B'Tselem

2) The Association for Civil Rights in Israel

3) Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

Actually there's loads of these organisations once you start looking...

Here is Peace Now , the one's responsible for the 60,000 who marched the other day. People say I hate Israelis etc, but here's 60,000 that I applaud greatly!

An article from Peace Now entitled 'A shameful chapter in Israel's history'...

	16-05-2002 09:33									#4
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An interesting bit of reading. Will be interested in seeing the responses (if any) from the other side. I worked at Hadassah for a brief period here in NY (they at least didn't care I was not only a gentile, but one of mostly German descent...), and the colleagues I keep in touch with from there are all pretty much against current Israeli aggression.

	17-05-2002 00:24									#5
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Is there any actual evidence that a majority of Israelis would like to vote against Zionism? And if the term "Jewish state" is not defined by the Basic Law (come to think of it, Germany has one of those instead of a Constitution as well, I guess they are Fascists) is this really anti-democratic? Is Britain not a democracy because you can't advocate overthrowing the Monarchy? Does the ban on the Nazi party in Austria make it a fascist dictatorship?

Israel is a Democracy because it holds basically free elections every 4 years which result in the peaceful transition of power. And the idea that a discriminatory immigration policy is tantamount to Fascism is ridiculous. To turn the author's expression back on him, if Israel is "Fascist," then the English language is dead.

	17-05-2002 04:44									#6
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quote: And FYI the author is Jewish

So f**king what?

Hitler supposedly had jewish links too.

You're acting out of the principle that a Jew has to be pro-israel or has to know a great deal about it.

Unlike in Palestine, Israelis are allowed to have different ideas and they are discussed in the media.

And yes, there are anti-zionist jews, even in Israel (wierd, no?).

quote: This, despite the fact that Israel has no constitution;

Neither does Brittain.

quote: despite the fact that Israel is defined as the state of the Jewish people, providing special rights and privileges to anyone in the world who is Jewish and seeks to live there, over and above longtime Arab residents.

Similar to Poland which gives special rights to poles, and Russia which gives special rights to russians living in other countries.

quote: This, despite the fact that Israel bars any candidate from holding office who thinks the country should be a secular, democratic state with equal rights for all.

This is a lie.

Israel bars candidates who thinks the country should be non-jewish or non-democratic.

Israel is an ethnical nation, not a political one. I know it's hard to understand for some people, but they are simply not aware that there's a world outside USA.

quote: This, despite the fact that non-Jews are restricted in terms of how much land they can own, and in which places they can own land at all, thanks to laws granting preferential treatment to Jewish residents.

huh?

There's a restriction on the amount of land that can be owned by private bodies. There's no legal restriction on the amount of land that non-jews can own.

quote: This, despite that fact that even the Israeli Supreme Court has acknowledged the use of torture against suspected “terrorists” and other “enemies” of the Jewish state.

Not at all true.
The supreme court has banned the use of torture, except "limited physical pressure" in "ticking time bomb" scenarios. Therefore, if a case arises where torture is used not directly to prevent an upcoming terract, the Supreme Court will send the torturers to jail.

It's also idiocy to think that there's any country that wouldn't use torture to save it's citizens.

	17-05-2002 04:48									#7
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quote: Similar to Poland which gives special rights to poles, and Russia which gives special rights to russians living in other countries.

Poles and Russians are ethnic catagories. Judaism is SOLELY a religion, no matter what ignorant people will say.

quote: Israel bars candidates who thinks the country should be non-jewish or non-democratic.

Hence anyone that is for a secular democratic state.

	17-05-2002 04:48									#8
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quote: For some, it is apparently sufficient that Israel has an electoral system, and that Arabs have the right to vote in those elections (though just how equally this right is protected is of course a different matter).

This is clear propoganda, as it questions the protection of this right, without bringing any proof for the opposite, yet intentionally putting doubt in a reader's mind.

This right exists for everyone and none are banned from voting.

quote: The fact that one can’t vote for a candidate who questions the special Jewish nature of the state, because such candidates can’t run for or hold office, strikes most as irrelevant: hardly enough to call into question their democratic credentials.

And in England you can't cancel the monarchy.
so?

	17-05-2002 04:49									#9
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quote: In Israel, voters get to choose between Zionists. In the former case, we recognize such truncated freedom as authoritarianism. In the latter case, we call it democracy.

This is also not true.

Currently, there are several parties in the Knesset, Meretz and Hadash, which are calling to cancel zionism and make Israel a political nation.

	17-05-2002 04:53									#10
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Also, what are these "worse land" nonsense???

It's like claiming that England is not treating the Scots well, since it only offers them the "worse" land - scottland. It's idiotic.

Like it's our ****ing fault that we settled on land and.... wow... improved it.

	17-05-2002 05:02									#11
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quote: Furthermore, the fences would slice up Jerusalem and restrict Arab access to the Holy Basin and the Old City: a direct swipe at Muslims who seek access on a par with their fellow descendants of Abraham.

Again nonsense.

Israel has always allowed free access to the holy sites and will continue to do so.

It were the Jordanians that barred free access and infact desecrated Jewish holy sites.

And if we're talking about free access - how about Jewish access to the temple mount? Namely Ariel Sharon?

	17-05-2002 05:24									#12
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The guy who wrote this article is living in a dream world. Thailand is a Buddahist state with a king. It is also a democracy. Sovereign nations can have whatever state religion they choose unless he is suggesting that we sanction all those who do not subscribe to his version of the secular state idea.

	17-05-2002 05:40									#13
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Exelllent artcle I would have continue d as s Mobnius. But I don´t like to repeat stuff. . .

	17-05-2002 06:34									#14
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Kamrat - excellent thinking - you only read sources with thoughts similar to your own.

Furthermore you failed to respond to the problems i raised about the article. it's full of either inexact facts or logical phallacies.

instead - like always, you ignored that and only proceeded to strengthen your view.

	17-05-2002 06:37									#15
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quote: And in England you can't cancel the monarchy.

Canceling the monarchy and actually SAYING you want to cancel the monarchy are two different things. You can be elected to Parliament even if you want to end the monarchy. Can't be elected to the Knesset if you say you don't want Israel to be a Jewish state .

	17-05-2002 06:46									#16
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Imran - that is simply false.

All the arab parties, and Meretz think that Israel should stop being Jewish.

But they can't include it as an official goal.

So you have no point.

	17-05-2002 06:48									#17
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Siro... you said, and I quote:

quote: Israel bars candidates who thinks the country should be non-jewish or non-democratic.

Mind clearing that up?

	17-05-2002 06:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Poles and Russians are ethnic catagories. Judaism is SOLELY a religion, no matter what ignorant people will say.

You are ignorant - no matter what you say.

Jews are and ethnicity, and science is behind that claim.

The fact is that Judaism was always preserved in small closed circles of Jews who only married Jews and so on.

The next issue of Scientific American iirc, will have a big feature about Jews from around the world having common gene patterns, different from non-jews in thier respective countries.

In reality, the Jews are an ethnicity, one very closely tied to the Palestinians and Syrians.

quote: Hence anyone that is for a secular democratic state.

That is again different.

Judaism is the Jewish tradition.

Laws in Israel are based on Jewish tradition the same way that English laws are based on English tradition and so on.

Just because you in America invented it from scratch doesn't mean we ought to.

No one is forced to believe in anything.

However, due to tradition, saturday is the free day and not sunday.

Also, public facitlities have to be kosher since they represent the jewish state and tradition.

	17-05-2002 06:55									#19
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quote: Jews are and ethnicity, and science is behind that claim.

I like to see that 'science'. Bullshit.. it's a religion. You are the ignorant one. Fed too much propaganda by your masters.

quote: In reality, the Jews are an ethnicity, one very closely tied to the Palestinians and Syrians.

Seeing how most people have said Palestinians and Syrians are all Arabs... doesn't this mean that Jews are simply Arab, and thus a Jewish state is just an Arab state .

quote: Judaism is the Jewish tradition. Laws in Israel are based on Jewish tradition the same way that English laws are based on English tradition and so on.

So no one can run that wants away with the tradition. And you say you are free ?

	17-05-2002 06:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Siro... you said, and I quote: quote: Israel bars candidates who thinks the country should be non-jewish or non-democratic. Mind clearing that up?

The basic law of Knesset says that a party can't include in it's goals:

a) the intention to cancel the democratic nature of israel
b) the intention to cancel the jewish nature of israel

both the first and second clauses were used to ban both extreme arab and extreme jewish parties (kach was one).

now it's also added that any who openly supports a rogue state or rogue actions against israel can't be elected.

which is logical.

imagine a senate member who openly supports bin laden?

	17-05-2002 06:59									#21
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quote: b) the intention to cancel the jewish nature of israel

So anyone that wants a secular state. Wouldn't that mean tomorrow Sharon could say all the Arab parties are illegal?

quote: imagine a senate member who openly supports bin laden?

They would be allowed to serve if elected. As long as they don't give up government secrets to aid the enemy, they can stay. See, we have a free democracy .

	17-05-2002 07:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Jews are and ethnicity, and science is behind that claim. I like to see that 'science'. Bullshit.. it's a religion. You are the ignorant one. Fed too much propaganda by your masters.

You're the idiot here.

You can yell what your palestinian friend told you all you want, but you have no case since science is against you.

American Journal of Human Genetics has an interesting story about it, due to see light in June this year. Note it down.

quote: quote: In reality, the Jews are an ethnicity, one very closely tied to the Palestinians and Syrians. Seeing how most people have said Palestinians and Syrians are all Arabs... doesn't this mean that Jews are simply Arab, and thus a Jewish state is just an Arab state .

Not true.

Palestinians considered themselves part of historical Syria. As I've numerously mentioned.

During the 40s and 50s and the (brittish invented) idea of pan-arab unity, the Palestinians thought of themselves as pan-arabs and hoped it would help their cause.

Seeing how it didn't, in the late 60s they decided that it's time to unite themselves behind a nationality, and thus the palestinian nationality was created.

quote: So no one can run that wants away with the tradition. And you say you are free ?

So no one can run that wants away with the constitution? And you say you are free?

	17-05-2002 07:05									#23
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quote: . Jews are and ethnicity, and science is behind that claim.

Whose science?

Geneticists say all humans are genetically 99.5% identical. Race is really a fiction, something created based on appearance to differentiate people. It is not a reality. To base policy on preferring one race over another is racism, nothing less. So it's either religious bigotry or racism, which one? huh?

	17-05-2002 07:09									#24
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quote: So no one can run that wants away with the constitution? And you say you are free?

Says who? In the USA, you can run for office no matter what. Look at David Duke, for chrissakes. You may not WIN, but nothing bars you from running unless you're a convicted felon.

I could run on a platform of making me dictator for life, if I wanted. Hmmm, good idea...

	17-05-2002 07:10									#25
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Look, if you want to logically discuss things - please do.

If you instead want to deny the idea of ethnicity and choose to relish in PC claims and blame science of racism - I'm not interested.

There is nothing racist in ethnical nationality.

Are you calling basques racist because they want to have their own country?

Are you calling catholoc irish racist because they want to have thier own country?

no.

but you are calling zionist jews racist just because they want ot have thier own country.

	17-05-2002 07:12									#26
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quote: Says who? In the USA, you can run for office no matter what. Look at David Duke, for chrissakes. You may not WIN, but nothing bars you from running unless you're a convicted felon.

Well the USA is pretty much alone in this.

In most if not all European countries, there are limits barring you from running for office, if you are racist or anti-democratic.

quote: I could run on a platform of making me dictator for life, if I wanted. Hmmm, good idea...

good luck.

do it in USA... not here.

	17-05-2002 07:16									#27
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quote: but you are calling zionist jews racist just because they want ot have thier own country.

This is a specious claim and you know it. The Jews have their own country, and they are denying one to the Palestinians. By your own logic, the Jews are racist for denying them a country. Glad you can admit that.

Also, the argument wasn't about having one's own country. It was about, within said country, having laws favoring one race over another. That is indeed bigotry. I believe the Nazis did that, didn't they? Germans over everyone else?

	17-05-2002 07:28									#28
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We are no longer denying a country from the palestinians.

Some people in Israel are. I'm not. Neither is the most of Israelis.

What is true, is that currently, no one in Israel trust the palestinians enough, or wants them to have an ability to build an army or something.

We really can't allow them a country for our safety. why?

because they have for years now been enciting against israel in schools, sermons and media. everyone, even school books, glorified suicide bombers and martyrs and describe martyrdom as the holiest and most respectful thing. furthermore, all of those sources preach for non-compromise about palestine - no two states solution, but rather a one single palestine - historical palestine.

www.edume.org

Boris, which laws in israel favour israeli jews over israeli non-jews?

as for the immigration policy - it's the same as in germany and poland and russia. furthermore, since israel is an ethnic state, just like germany and poland and russia, the immigration policy is one of it's tools to preserve itself such.

	17-05-2002 07:38									#29
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All states except Israel are allowed to have immigration laws. If Israel does it then they are like Nazi Germany.

	17-05-2002 14:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov We really can't allow them a country for our safety. why? because they have for years now been enciting against israel in schools, sermons and media. everyone, even school books, glorified suicide bombers and martyrs and describe martyrdom as the holiest and most respectful thing. furthermore, all of those sources preach for non-compromise about palestine - no two states solution, but rather a one single palestine - historical palestine.[

Romania really can't allow hungarians a country for our safety. Why?
We fight them in WWI, we fight them in WWII and they consider those who died fighting against romanian are heros. In hungarian schools they are teach that Transylvania belong to Hungaria.

I say let's burn down the Budapest!
If any western country want to help us, remember that Budapest IS NOT the capital of Romania.