 |
| |
|
|
Asher
|
 |
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
But still, let's follow this logic:
1) If you're white, black, or Hispanic, and you prefer to only date someone of your own race, you're a racist.
2) If you're a Christian and you prefer to only marry another Christian of the same denomination, then you're religiously bigoted.
3) If you're Christian, and you prefer to not marry any Jew, then you're anti-semitic.
4) And lastly, if you're heterosexual or homosexual, and prefer not to have a monogamous union with a bisexual, then you hate bisexuals. |
Once again, I've never used the term racist.
I've never used the term bigot.
I've never used anti-semetic.
I've never used the word hate.
If people feel they can't date someone BECAUSE they're bisexual they obviously do have SOMETHING against that. That much is obvious. Whether it's a conscious thing or subconscious thing depends on the purpose I guess.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
 |
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kamrat X
I´d say that YES, not having a relationship with a person cause he/she´s black/white/yellow/whatever IS racist. Maybe sub-conscious but still racist.
The same applies to homo/bi relationships IMO. I´m with Asher and PH on this one. |
You are simply wrong. By and large, races all have distinguishing physical characteristics that some people of different races simply don't find attractive. It has nothing to do with being racist, it's about attraction. Would you date someone you just weren't attracted to? And are you attracted to all races equally?
The fact is, I don't find men of Indian descent attractive. It is a personal preference of mine, and I can't help it...it's just the way my attraction is, the same way some people like fuller figures or they like slender figures. But I am certainly not racist against Indians, as I have many dear Indian friends. I'm also not attracted to men who are over 40. Does that make me ageist? Are you all attracted to all ages equally? I hope not.
There are, also, other reasons why I wouldn't date anyone over 35. You can pretty much guess what those are, but it gets summed up by this...personal compatibility.
I also won't date strongly conservative types. Guess I must be bigoted against them, too.
quote:
The same applies to homo/bi relationships IMO. I´m with Asher and PH on this one. |
What about hetero/bi? Or do you have a double standard there?
Mantra: If you support the right for someone to date whomever they choose, it is 100% hypocritical to comdemn them for NOT dating whomever they choose.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
This is not what we need right now with Gay Pride events occurring soon around the world. 
This should be about gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and heterosexuals coming together to affirm the legitimacy of all these sexual orientations.
Not create a bitter division between gays and bisexuals on Apolyton.
Boris -- Asher, Provost, and the others are probably right in this case, which is why I am now open to the possibility that my dream man might someday be a bisexual man rather than a gay man.
Let's get to the positive affirmation and unity of Gay Pride this year on Apolyton. |
There is nothing positive or affirming in being shouted down for one's own dating choices. It is romantic Fascism, and antithetical to everything Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual pride is all about. There is absolutely nothing that delegitimizes bisexuals by someone choosing not to date one. They and now you are not right about this, as condemning others for whom they do or do not date is wrong. Period.
I am not condeming your reassessment of your beliefs...most likely, you did not have a strong opinion about it before. That's fine, and that's your choice. But the issue here is not whether me, you or anyone does or does not want to date a bisexual. It is about being excorciated, unjustly, for making choices in whom you do and don't date. The same argument used here can be applied to all manner of choices, and then you will find yourself being damned for whatever choices you make in dating. Don't want to date that bucktoothed, chain-smoking bald guy with halitosis? You bigot, you.
If I'm supposed to somehow bear this kind of hypocrisy in silence in deference to Gay Pride, then I say Gay Pride has lost, as clearly the values of self-determination that are at its core have vanished.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Asher
|
|
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:19
|
|
quote:
I must once again agree with Boris on this one, It's simply a matter of exercising romantic preference, and with no sinister intentions up our sleeves. |
I must once again remind you and Boris that nobody said you had sinister intentions.
quote:
Saying that one should have no degree of sexual or romantic preference whatsoever is completely silly. |
Nobody has said that.
quote:
I don't want to date a girl that's a smoker, I don't want to date a redhead, and I don't want to date a girl that's bisexual, and not because I think they are morally wrong or anything of that nature, but I I don't wanna date them simply because I don't wanna. |
This is where you're being shallow. But you have every right to be shallow, and that is your preference, but that doesn't stop it from being shallow.
Not dating someone because they're bisexual is like not dating someone simply because they're black. It's something I would never discriminate about myself, but if you want to judge people based upon their bisexuality as being not good enough for you to date, so be it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
green_athena
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Exactly, Provost -- but the original topic was bisexuality.
Who believes in the theory that we are all fundamentally bisexual? What are good sources to read about this theory? |
I've considered that theory and finally fell in the "possibly true" side. I mean, males have a need for male companionship, and females for females, whether or not it has anything to do with sex. So maybe a "straight" male is just closer to the 2% male/98% female-likes barrier.
Would not say definitively true, because who the hell am *I* to know?
As for sexuality/bisexuality --- despite common misperception, sexuality has Nothing to do with who you happen to be with _At The Moment_. Sexuality has to do with who you have the *ability* to be attracted to. A bisexual male can marry a woman, be exclusively with that woman, and yet still be bisexual. It's just something that you ARE ...based on who you are attracted to, not who you're with at any given time.
This is why the Willow-thing on Buffy drives me nuts. I love the show. But no, Willow is not "gay". Willlow is quite clearly bisexual. It's very irritating and slightly offensive to a bi to have her constantly referred to as gay.
To say someone is Gay, when they are Bi ...cuts off an entire half of the homo species they could be attracted to. I'm Bi and it offends me. It's not that being called gay has anything inherently wrong with it, if I were gay that would be good. However, to call me gay suddenly says I can't find Brad Pitt attractive. But...wait...the man *is* attractive ... see my point?
And yes, here in the U.S., the existance of bisexuality is largely ignored. I keep waiting ...keep waiting...those blessed 90's gave us (as a culture) more tolerance in general for being gay (see: "in general"). ...and bisexuality was at least *mensioned* a few places in pop culture here and there.... so I keep hoping...hoping someone will open up the can and get Bisexual out into our media.
In some ways I am very envious of you there in Europe -- because while you may get divulged with our media, you at least also get your own and that of some nearby places. You have a clear choice. We almost exclusively get drowned in our own (which, of course, is filled with your actors  . The most we get with some ease is the BBCA. My roommate pays $25 extra a month on our tv bill just to get ONE channel broadcast from Tokyo. But that's getting seriously off-subject  (sorry).
I smashed into Adolescence in the 80's (before those wonderfully liberal 90's), in a place where the term "Bisexual" was not even heard of. As In: it was nowhere in our media, in our mouths, in our minds. Never heard of its possibility. I was taught you are either Straight or you are Gay and you _ARE Straight_.
So I was doubly confused. For the first.. maybe year.. of realizing I was Bi (due to landing myself in a more liberal and excepting atmosphere) ..I considered it a horrible curse. Bi's here are often hated/resented by BOTH the straight AND gay communities ... so I was thinking "oh, great ...Here! Here I AM!! (waves hands up in the air)
Hey ...I'm over here ...hate *me* please ...." yeah like that's something anyone actually healthily would _want_ in their life. However, thankfully I got over that it's-a-curse thinking because the way I see it now, I am surely blessed to understand both the beauty of (for instance) Ewan McGregor AND Nicole Kidman --watching "Moulin Rouge" is a 200%-awestuck experience. I am Right There with Kidman's character woo'd by Ewan...and Right There with Ewan woo'd by Kidman. heh heh. Nifty blessing.
Okay. Out of breath for my own windiness now ...so whatever else I may have to say, I'm going to cut this now. Thanks for the mindchew.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sikander
|
 |
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:19
|
|
An interesting thread. I wonder where all of this fits into people's world views regarding how one's sexuality is determined? Those who believe that heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality are probably genetically determined have a good case that ruling out a particular type who otherwise would be a fine choice for a partner is akin to racism on some level. For those people who like me think that one's sexual preference has a lot more to do with their experiences than their genetics, then refusing to date a bisexual is more akin to refusing to date a heavy drinker. It's the behavioral issues that are the worry.
You can prefer people of a certain race, and almost no one will call you a bigot. You can state that preference and still very few people will call you a bigot. When you say that you will not date someone of a certain race, you are opening the floodgates. This is pretty reasonable really. Many of us have not been attracted to a certain type of person, and never saw ourselves ever being so. But through the mystery of fate sometimes we end up falling in love with those types of people we never thought we would go for. This is not uncommon. But it is almost impossible to get to this point if you have pre-programmed yourself by repeating your mantra "I will never date a ____." This is what is probably offensive to others, the fact that you are closing off any possibility of connecting with the person who may well be your soul mate because of factors that have little to nothing to do with the matter.
All that said, I tend to agree with those who say they have a right to choose whatever sort of partner they wish. Damn straight. (Perhaps that's not the best phrase there!) I tend to avoid alchoholics for similar reasons, though I'm pretty careful not to rule anything out completely. Still, I prefer to not start a relationship which is going to have a lot of immediate baggage. I assume that for some people dating a bisexual is a similar undertaking, frought with worries about longterm compatability and / or whether the person has the capability to commit themselves to the relationship to the same extent. These are completely valid concerns, though they remain valid whether or not the person you are deciding upon is bisexual or not. It's probably a mistake to make completely blanket categorizations ahead of time, in part because you may actually miss out on something wonderful, and in part because this thread has shown that it is hurtful to hear that people totally dismiss people in your category (I'm an over 40 chain smoker with halitosis myself) out of hand. There is no more important area in your life to be discriminating about than your choice of partners, but perhaps a bit of discretion is called for when discussing your checklist in public.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Rand Al'Tor
|
 |
Newsmax N/CE Moderator
Apr 2000
time: 05:19
|
|
Hmmm, perhaps Mr. Fun and Monkspider should for an organization of People Choosing Not to Have a Relationship With Bisexual People But Have no Problem With Them Really.
As in the other thread, I am with you guys on this. "I would have trouble having a comfortable relationship with..." is somethiong ENTIRELY else then "... are all..." The latter is a judgement of an entire heap of people (prejudice) the former is merely a judgement of one's own tastes. I mean, people are attracted to other people for the most inane and pointles reasons, sexuality (as in bisexual or no) included. It is no more reasonable to choose NOT to have a relation with someone because (s)he likes R&B, even IF she swears she will never listen to it again.
Though Sikander has a point. If you would switch 'I'd never...' with 'I can't imagine myself attracted (for long term relationship) to...' it'd probably be much less controoversial.
I'm generally with the whole everyone potentially bisexual. I usually compare it with tastes in vegetables. I don't know why, but I've grown up with a like for spinash and a hatred for chicory. The mere smell of chicory is enough to dampen my eating pleasure. Will I say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to EVER like chicory? No. For one, there was a time when I hated almost all vegetables like that, and I have learned to appreciate a lot of other tastes. And, purely from a 'sexual atraction POV' (I think love is an entirely different discussion) it is very well possible that in the right circumstances I'd get some Yaoi action. Heck, I think I dislike the idea of eating chicory more then I dislike the idea of blowing someone or such.
of course, perhaps I'm just a chicoryphobe and am actually sexually attracted to chicory
No wait, that can't be right.
As for my personal preference. I don't think i'd have a problem with a bisexual girl.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Sikander
|
|
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chrono353
well my whole life i think i am homosexual. ever since i was 15 i knew or so i knew somthing was not kosher. i did not really feel attracted to girls at that point. tho before that i seem to be attracted to women. anyway i went through my life keeping this to myself. when i moved out i made it clear to my folks there only child would not give them any grandchildren so i warned them abot the whole thing . they didnt like it and we rarely speak about the issue.
let me get to the point here. i was settling down with my life and at peace with myself and had all friends and life was going somewhere. then..then...of all things i meet a girl we met actually when she actually she gave me a ride when my car broke down. then she suggests to bring me over for a movie. ok i think. so i go over when my car has fixed. and somehow somthing changed. we ended up having sex!:confued: my boyfriend wasnt happy. he knew cause she called and left a message. i never told her i was gay. he was furouis and i knew deep down my feelings for the same sex relationship were vanquishing. so we broke it off. fortunately she understood the whole mess and didnt make a titantic fuss about the whole ordeal. i am now for some reason attracted to her. only her. so my question what the hell is wrong with me
i am a person who use to despise women for the most part. possibly because my mother was never there and a few other tidbits i dont want to talk about. and my early attempts to socialise with someone of the opposite sex were met with laughs and rejection. maybe? maybe not. but why does god throw a wrench like this into my wheel of life. i mean i was happy. i am happy now but i am confused and traumatized about the whole ordeal. i lost so many good gay friends and am at odds with my family.
so i suppose i am now a bisexual. i am glad you all have talked about this. i saw it some days ago but did not respond . i knew before hand. but i thought bisexuals were both. i seem to be homosexual for a few years and str8 for a fews
years. will i go back homosexual? what happening to me. anybody know of anything similiar
hopefully ill stay one or the other.at this point i dont care. i just want stability |
chrono353,
What you are going through is very common, so don't worry that no one will understand or that you are more screwed up than anyone you know. You are currently a person with ambivalent sexuality, that is you are attracted to someone based upon what they can offer you rather than their gender. You probably developed this outlook because you were emotionally abandoned (I'm guessing from what you said above) as a child and you had to develop a means for meeting your needs that your parents weren't fulfilling. I wouldn't be surprised if a little sexual abuse wasn't part of the equation, as abandoned children are often the victims of sexual abuse, and there is nothing like sex abuse to create confusion about one's sexual identity.
Your boyfriend met your needs for a time. He gave you love and company, and you built a social scene around that relationship to replace the ones that coming out damaged (ie with your parents and your old friends). You were happy and your immediate needs were being met, and in this environment it is difficult not to grow up a bit, especially since you had been waiting a long time to get to that point.
It is when we are changing that we most surprise ourselves. You didn't know that you were capable of being sexually attracted to and / or loving a woman. And perhaps a few years ago you weren't. But you have changed, and your subconscious knew what your conscious did not, or perhaps did not dare to. I would not be at all surprised to hear that your relationship with your boyfriend was becoming strained because you were perhaps becoming more self-assured and self-knowledgable. This type of thing tends to change the power dynamics of a relationship, and if there isn't a simultaneous realization of the changes and a reallignment of the dynamics in the relationship, the relationship will usually fail.
A new relationship comes with quite a few advantages. For one, we are allowed to reinvent ourselves because our new lover doesn't really have anything invested in our old self, and we are feeling good and willing to take risks. Where those we know previously have an investment in who we used to be, and will often exert considerable energy to keep things that way, our new partner is often happy to get to know the new person we are becoming, just as we are.
Of course you are probably lonely because you have lost your friends who liked you the way you were, and you are rightly worried about the instability of your situation. You are right to be concerned, but I think you are definitely on the right path. I say that regardless of whatever sexual preference you decide is your own. You are making the changes necessary for you to be an integrated person. This is a two-step process. First you have to learn something about yourself that was hidden from you, and second you have to integrate that part of yourself which was shut out of your normal mind state. You have done exactly that here. You found out that you were capable of having sex with a woman and enjoying it, and you integrated that part of yourself to the rest by exploring it and developing a loving relationship.
I imagine that there will be more surprises for you as you move along with your life, though I doubt that they will be as shocking to you as those you describe here. A word of advice. It will be tempting for someone whose identity is still plastic (ie changeable) to latch on to other people in order to provide themselves with a solid framework for their identity. If all of your friends think they have a good idea of who you are, you can use that to overcome my anxieties about not knowing who you are. Resist this. These people don't know you any better than you know yourself, they just seem like they do. But they can keep you from figuring it out because they become invested in who you were when they met you, and you become reliant upon their company and support. All of this inhibits your ability to find out who you really are and what you really want. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have friends, but I am saying that you should have a lot of very different friends who can teach you about different aspect of yourself and who as a group are not particularly invested in any one thing in your personality. This type of structure will help prevent you from getting stuck with the choice of growing or having friends, and it may also prevent the sort of collateral damage I imagine that your boyfriend suffered when you dumped him.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
chrono353
|
|
to the arguement about dating bisexuals. i like what mrfun says. you shouldnt close the door cause they are bisexual. and when i lived in new york. i knew lots of men who proclaimed themselves all homosexual. yet they always had the phone number of a girlfriend pr [octure of there wife in there wallet. and had secret women too. they lived 2 lives. yet they never told you about the other. you could only find out through there wallet while they slept. silly i know. lot more common out there than most think
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
28-05-2002 04:44
.
|