31-05-2002 00:02									#61
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SG, Horse, (Chris 62?) we will probably start a regular PBEM game (maybe with more settlers from the beginning) here: New Game. (Also La Fayette and Mea are prepared to play, although they didn't post yet). Everybody is welcomed.

	31-05-2002 00:36									#62
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Take the corruption formula (Corruption and waste )as an example: the constants that affect the corruption level under different governments are very useful for strategic decisions.

Not really... the difference between one shield corruption either way is a minor point at best. We understood the basic corruption model after just a few games. There was really no need to carry it out to such extreem because of the limited impact on the game

quote: The facts collected in the Info: combat thread are very important. Do you want to say that each player had his own version of collected combat fact and held it back?

Early combat tables have been around since the beginning. They covered the basics, which is really all you need to know. Such percision (multiple decimal points) is not an issue since there is still a random element in combat. There is really no big difference between a 3 to one advantage and a 3.15 to one advantage...

However... if you really care to know the "exact" level of corruption before putting a city down... or carrying the odds of battle out to 5 decimal points before making an attack, it's no surprise it takes you an hour to do anything. Some of us can make the right decision based on experience, instead of being dictated to by quasi meaningless charts and graphs

	31-05-2002 00:41									#63
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quote: Originally posted by rah Does anyone else find it ironic that a thread started to make fun of it might encourage using it more?

More like poetic justice.

	31-05-2002 00:42									#64
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Take the corruption formula (Corruption and waste )as an example: the constants that affect the corruption level under different governments are very useful for strategic decisions. But it looks nobody missed them last 5 years. I suppose most players gained some intuitive notion about the corruption level in different governments and they were contented.

To me the second paragraph is the key here. It is always nice to see how things work, but you only really need to understand the relevant variables to play the game. It's the same with many other areas where the exact mechanics aren't exactly known.

	31-05-2002 00:47									#65
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I think the point my brother is trying to make is that for things, i.e. trade routes. Yes we know you get more if you're connected by road along the optimal path, or with another player, or demand, or on a another continent, etc etc etc it pays more. But is it critical to know that it will pay 190 gold vs. 210? NO it is not. And it shouldn't take 20 extra minutes to figure out. Combat, yes everyone (or at least the good players) had their own version that was probably at least 90% correct. Yes if I'm attacking i'll do a quick calculation of the odds, but does it have to be perfect. NO it does not. It doesn't matter if I think I'm attacking at 14 to 4 and it's really 13 to 4, it's close enough to calculate approximately how many unit's you're going to need to take out a fortified position. Randomness always adds enough fuzzy to your calcs that you have to pad in order to increase your odds of success.

If I calculated everything perfectly before ever making a decision in the game, I would either just quit, or people would stop playing with me when my turns took too long. The good players do quick calcs/approximation and make quick decisions. And if you can't, I don't consider you a good player. (or I will avoid playing you at all costs to save frustration)

People that take the extra time to calculate it down to the 10th decimal place don't impress me, since that accuracy is not necessary to play a simple GAME FOR FUN.

RAH

Damn, took so long to post, everyone jumped in and said basically the same thing.

	31-05-2002 03:37									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker ...I suppose most players gained some intuitive notion about the corruption level in different governments and they were contented. To me the second paragraph is the key here.

I know this is a difference between me and other players. I prefer as exact as possible counting, in place of intuitive decisions. I like to count if it is better to build a new city or to mine hills etc.
And another point: you need many games to get the intuitive opinion. But the fact that the monarchy/republic ratio of lost trade is 4/3 brings you a fast and clear information.

quote: Originally posted by rah Combat, yes everyone (or at least the good players) had their own version that was probably at least 90% correct.

Why the h**ll didn't you try to get your versions together? This is the point I don't understand.

quote: Originally posted by Ming There is really no big difference between a 3 to one advantage and a 3.15 to one advantage...

I agree. But there is a big difference between 3 to 3 advantage and 3.15 to 3 advantage. Moreover differences are not 0.15, but +50%, +100%... Some bonuses don't work simultaneously with others etc.

quote: Originally posted by rah If I calculated everything perfectly before ever making a decision in the game, I would either just quit, or people would stop playing with me when my turns took too long.

Play SP or PBEM
Oh, you ordinary (MP) players...

quote: Originally posted by Ming Some of us can make the right decision based on experience

Really "right"?

	31-05-2002 03:51									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I like to count if it is better to build a new city or to mine hills etc.

Hmmmm.... build a new city or mine a hill... I don't need a chart to tell me which one is going to be better in the long run... TAKE THE CITY... you can always mine the hill later

And even if a chart were to direct you that, based on some obscure production difference, the mine might be better... that chart must be ignoring the exponential growth factor of an additional city that can then crank out yet another settler...

MP is more about strategy and tactics then it is exact numbers.
Again... you have not brought up any factor that is so critical that it applies to the overall game situation.

One that does matter is the number of beakers needed. You would be surprised on how anal some of us get to maximize it for getting a science. Now there is one that can have a significant effect on the game. Knowing you need that one extra beaker and how to squeeze it out so that you can revolt on an ODEO year... big difference. But at least we do that one during others people turns so we don't slow the game down

	31-05-2002 04:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Why the h**ll didn't you try to get your versions together? This is the point I don't understand.

Didn't need to. All the regular's theories were reasonably close. It's not like we didn't discuss it. It was considered common knowledge.

and.
"But there is a big difference between 3 to 3 advantage and 3.15 to 3 advantage."

I have to laugh. If the whole basis for your attack is that you'd attack at 3.15 to 3 but do it differently at 3 to 3, you've obviously don't have a good grasp of statistics. OK, revised to.... Or at least how they're applied.

RAH

	31-05-2002 06:28									#69
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Unlike you slow we don't try to pretend we're scholars and stop at nothing in the pursuit of useless knowledge. After all you've learned and all your pathetic little posts what are you? You are nothing. You can't beat anyone in the game much less get them to play you and you still can't seem to convince anyone you are intelligent.

	31-05-2002 16:18									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Some of us can make the right decision based on experience, instead of being dictated to by quasi meaningless charts and graphs

Isn't the important point not that we make the 'right' decision based on intuition or calculus, but that we make a decision with which we are happy to live and take whatever consequences may come - this is a game remember - but really the same principal governs life as well ...

SG[1]

	31-05-2002 22:25									#71
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SlowThinker pm'd me to invite me to this thread. Is the basic issue whether or not minutae are of any relevance? Rah pointed out the beaker counting that does matter. Does combat detail matter? Somewhat - BTW, rah, 3.15 vs 3 has much better odds than 3 vs 3 That small tip above even attack/defense ratio tips the scales a lot more than the tiny raw difference of 0.15).

Does this apply at game time? I, for one, do not use it. I condensed all that combat info primarily as a way to exercise my dusty math skills (sorry, ST!). The topic was one I found interesting, but the most I'll consider before charging my unit is the simple attack value vs the defender's modified defense value. Probably the same as anybody else does.

I think that it has its place in the occasional situation. But doing it for every decision seems like overkill. Too much micromanagement takes away from the big picture, and that is ultimately what the game is about. Have fun, play!

	04-06-2002 16:54									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Eyes Unlike you slow we don't try to pretend we're scholars and stop at nothing in the pursuit of useless knowledge. After all you've learned and all your pathetic little posts what are you? You are nothing.

Ah, Eyes poked his head from the hole when noticed I am crushed by a predominance of others. But I didn't surrender yet!

quote: Originally posted by Ming And even if a chart were to direct you that, based on some obscure production difference, the mine might be better... that chart must be ignoring the exponential growth factor of an additional city that can then crank out yet another settler...

Firstly, not only a new city has an exponential growth factor. A mined hill, a delivered caravan have it too.
Secondly, that chart must compare the growth factor. (But the difference of a production and the difference of a production growth depend reciprocally). The more serious complication is that the exponent of that exponential growth changes in time: for example one course can bring you a fast growth now but a slower growth later, another course is reversed.

quote: Originally posted by Ming MP is more about strategy and tactics then it is exact numbers.

I am not speaking about MP, but about Civ2 from a general view...

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq The topic was one I found interesting, but the most I'll consider before charging my unit is the simple attack value vs the defender's modified defense value. Probably the same as anybody else does.

Yes, but I have a strong suspicion that before the Info:combat thread players didn't always know how the attack/defense bonuses are combined and in which situations they apply. In other words, they didn't know that modified defense value.

quote: Originally posted by rah I have to laugh. If the whole basis for your attack is that you'd attack at 3.15 to 3 but do it differently at 3 to 3, you've obviously don't have a good grasp of statistics.

Supposing 10 hit points and 1 firepower: 50% chance to win with 3 vs 3, 58.3% chance to win with 3.15 vs 3.
OK, this is not a big difference, but it is a difference.

quote: Originally posted by Eyes You can't beat anyone in the game

Eyes, You know, there are 2 types of players: Type 1 players want to win, they get disgruntled if they lose a game. Type 2 players want to play, and to play a good game, they get disgruntled if their opponent plays too bad.
I am the type 2 and I can live very contentedly with an idea that I can't beat you.

quote: Originally posted by SG[1] Isn't the important point not that we make the 'right' decision based on intuition or calculus, but that we make a decision with which we are happy to live and take whatever consequences may come - this is a game remember - but really the same principal governs life as well ...

I agree perfectly. The moment when I finished my tries with Civ2 and started my first game where I knew I won't be allowed to reload changed the atmosphere greatly.

	10-06-2002 23:56									#73
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So you're saying that 3.15 to 3 is fought as though at 4 to 3?

	11-06-2002 02:26									#74
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I don't think he said that.

	11-06-2002 03:00									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow So you're saying that 3.15 to 3 is fought as though at 4 to 3?

No.
I guess that odds of 4 to 3 will be approx. 85%

I used the Boco's calculator to get the result of 3.15 to 3.
The link: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=25493

	16-06-2002 10:20									#76
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quote: Originally posted by EyesOfNight In other words he's so dumb that he thinks he's being intelligent by analyzing simple things but fails to see that this only portrays him as a complete idiot. He's one of those people that will try to master most minute thing so he can say he is good at the game even though he really truly sucks. It's kind of like AOK he told me about how he knew all the tech costs and how nobody else knew them like he does and how he was so proud of it. Like anyone gives a **** about how much the paladin upgrade costs? You're an idiot, you suck at computer games, deal with it and move on with your life.

EON, stop acting like a 4 year old for a second. Slow plays a very different style of game from you. He plays it more like chess than like a video game. If you don't like that...just be graceful. You little ****.

	16-06-2002 10:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker This is an aspect I never understood here: it seems most players play civ contentedly and don't care about exact rules and game mechanics. Will you learn rules before you will play chess? The explanation is probably that I look on the civ as on the chess, whereas most other players as on an adventure game.

Well...I feel vindicated. I correctly diagnosed the signs of a chess puzzle player, before even reading this...

	16-06-2002 10:46									#78
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I think the "academics" like Marquis and Sloww have added a lot to the game. They've dispelled many myths, tracked donw interesting aspects like Oedo and tech advance beaker requirements.

obviously many people would be frustrated in playing like this in MP or even SP...but the academics still end up pushing the game forward. Their info permeates out...

	16-06-2002 16:23									#79
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Yeah, congrats to them, Oedo was a great discovery

	17-06-2002 05:11									#80
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i have to second stuff stated by the obviously fast players......exact odds aren't going to help you out to make them worth the wait.

Now if the payoff or such was worth its weight/wait in gold/tech...then we wouldn't have this debate...

its real simple...and can be likened to an accident

once the city drops or the units are ready to fight etc etc caravan is on its way....let it happen and remember the motto....."Move along folks, nothing to see hear"

All you slow players squeeking out that last beaker are over analyzing a simplistic/fun game.....

i assume your the type of people that slow down to look at traffic accidents too