25-05-2002 00:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH MS, do I take it from your signature that you consider yourself to be a christian? If so, would that be the source of your doubt in this matter? How ironic that Boris and MF have supported MS in his feelings (~doubts) about a girl who he's planning to live with because she may be bisexual.

how is that ironic

I would assume that they would not want a bisexual man for the same reason I do not want a bisexual woman (for an SO)

Jon Miller

	25-05-2002 01:00									#62
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Spencer, read my last post -- I am NOT bi-phobic.

	25-05-2002 01:01									#63
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MF

I'm not trying to deliberately bait you. Perhaps I'm being unclear. You've said you would feel uncomfortable in a relationship with a bisexual man (and now) despite the fact that you find them attractive. So what I'm trying to understand is why? For me this is like saying I'm attracted to that woman but I would be uncomfortable in a relationship with her because she's black, hindu, white, got three breasts (pick one). Isnt that the essence of prejudice, and isnt that what homophobia is?

	25-05-2002 01:01									#64
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Well dearie. Perhaps I did stretch things a bit, but I dont think its apples and oranges unless you or MF can actually give a reason. The question is why MF is "uncomfortable." Isnt one of the constant banners of the gay movement that the important factor that should decide legal status for example is a loving relationship of any kind rather than a heterosexual relationship? Perhaps you can tell us that gay men arent attracted to bisexual men? That would seem like a big stretch to me. What you have both said has more in common with homophobia than you are willing to admit to.

What on EARTH are you talking about? This is not at all what MrFun or I were saying. We were saying that, personally, we have no desire to date bisexual men. PERSONALLY. No where did anyone assert that gay men weren't attracted to bisexual men. No one asserted that, as you imply we did, somehow a gay man loving a bisexual man is an invalid relationship in general. Simply that, MrFun PERSONALLY does not want that.

And neither he or I are under any requirement to explain that other than to say that dating someone who is bisexual would not make us comfortable. If you're not comfortable dating any person for any reason, you're under no obligation to explain that so long as it is not something you project onto others. I wouldn't dare presume to tell my heterosexual friends whom they should feel comfortable dating.

	25-05-2002 01:03									#65
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way to go Boris

Jon Miller

	25-05-2002 01:03									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller how is that ironic I would assume that they would not want a bisexual man for the same reason I do not want a bisexual woman (for an SO) Jon Miller

I find it ironic because I would expect gay men to understand prejudice.

	25-05-2002 01:04									#67
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how is it prejudice?

Jon Miller

	25-05-2002 01:08									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I wouldn't dare presume to tell my heterosexual friends whom they should feel comfortable dating.

So if a white hetero friend tells you that he's atttracted to a black woman but "feels uncomfortable" about it, you wouldnt find it strange? Somehow I doubt that.

	25-05-2002 01:08									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller how is it prejudice? Jon Miller

replied to MF

	25-05-2002 01:10									#70
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH MF I'm not trying to deliberately bait you. Perhaps I'm being unclear. You've said you would feel uncomfortable in a relationship with a bisexual man (and now) despite the fact that you find them attractive. So what I'm trying to understand is why? For me this is like saying I'm attracted to that woman but I would be uncomfortable in a relationship with her because she's black, hindu, white, got three breasts (pick one). Isnt that the essence of prejudice, and isnt that what homophobia is?

It is your right to not want to date someone for whatever reason. You can not want to date someone because she is black. People are allowed to date whomever they want on whatever terms the two people involved deem acceptable.

Homophobia is the opposite of this, as that is telling people it is wrong to date someone because of factor X, Y, Z. It is about invalidating relationships that those who participate in them deem valid.

Any more fallacious arguments?

	25-05-2002 01:12									#71
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So if a white hetero friend tells you that he's atttracted to a black woman but "feels uncomfortable" about it, you wouldnt find it strange? Somehow I doubt that.

there are many other issues other than physical attraction

sexuality is one of them

I might be atractted to a woman

than find out she is a lesbian, my attraction will drop like a rock

is that wrong (it has notthing to do with chances, I am attracted to many people who I have an equal chance with as the lesbian)?

Jon Miller

	25-05-2002 01:14									#72
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As I see it, neither Mr. Fun nor Monkspider is 'prejudiced' since they don't make ANY judgement at all. They simply state something about their tastes. I mean, one can say that one doesn't find a black skin attractive, would that be racism. Are ALL people but 50% bisexual people sexist because they prefer one gender above the other? No, because they say it's just THEIR taste, and not a judgement.

	25-05-2002 01:15									#73
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So if a white hetero friend tells you that he's atttracted to a black woman but "feels uncomfortable" about it, you wouldnt find it strange? Somehow I doubt that.

The question is, is it any of my business to tell my friend he's wrong for feeling uncomfortable about it? No, it isn't. I would never, ever tell someone to enter into a relationship that made them feel uncomfortable, as it is not fair to them or the other person.

Would I find it strange? Maybe. Does that matter? No, because it isn't my business to tell other people who to love and who to NOT love.

That, my friend, is the entire point of the gay rights movement. It is not to tell you that a homosexual relationship is right for everybody. It is to tell people that anyone, gay or str8 or bi, have every right to determine who they want to spend their lives with, and it's NOBODY'S concern except the 2 consenting adults involved. That means ya got no business trying to stop a relationship of that kind, but it does not mean ya have to force anything on those not interested, either.

	25-05-2002 01:16									#74
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You're avoiding the issue Boris. If you dont find that person attractive then dont date them. If you do find them attractive but feel "uncomfortable" what is that?

	25-05-2002 01:20									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller there are many other issues other than physical attraction sexuality is one of them I might be atractted to a woman than find out she is a lesbian, my attraction will drop like a rock is that wrong (it has notthing to do with chances, I am attracted to many people who I have an equal chance with as the lesbian)? Jon Miller

I have no say in whats right or wrong. You need to ask yourself, since it has nothing to do with chances, why did the attraction drop?

	25-05-2002 01:22									#76
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sexuality makes up part of the person

I am not even interested in dating (or to put it better, trying to date) the aformentioned lesbian

because her sexuality makes her uninteresting for me

what is wrong in that

that is just how I choose an SO, is that wrong???

Jon Miller

	25-05-2002 01:24									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I have no say in whats right or wrong. You need to ask yourself, since it has nothing to do with chances, why did the attraction drop?

because sexuality makes up part of the person and the person I want for SO is not a lesbian

just like she will not be a smoker

Jon Miller

	25-05-2002 01:25									#78
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You're avoiding the issue Boris. If you dont find that person attractive then dont date them. If you do find them attractive but feel "uncomfortable" what is that?

This is at least the third time in this thread alone you have made up things I supposedly have said. When did I ever say it was merely an issue of attraction? Unless you're pretty shallow, loving someone and entering a relationship involves a lot more than mere attraction anway.

I haven't avoided any issue, as I've said quite clearly (though you seem to have selective reading abilities) that it doesn't matter what makes you uncomfortable dating someone. That's your right. Ipso facto. You could not want to date the most gorgeous woman in the world because you find out she's a Jew and you just happen to loathe Jews. That would be your choice. And I would fully support you in that choice, so long as you didn't try to say nobody should date a Jew or try to promote laws to ban Gentile/Jew dating.

	25-05-2002 01:28									#79
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Thanks Jon, I will be certain to broach the subject delicately.

How do you go about doing that? Ask her which soft core porn she's in for tonight, lesbian, straight or menagea trois? Then over a month , keep track of which one she chooses most?

PS: Don't mean to be flippant about this, nor to make light of your feelings, but sometimes you really do have to take a step back and lighten up. Seriously, I don't think I could deal with a serious relationship, long term like that, though, hoo boy, short term could be a blast! But then hetero females tend to be a lot more comfy w/ saying, doing and looking at things that most guys, even open minded manly men would feel much less comfortable about, in terms of the same gender.

	25-05-2002 01:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The question is, is it any of my business to tell my friend he's wrong for feeling uncomfortable about it? No, it isn't. I would never, ever tell someone to enter into a relationship that made them feel uncomfortable, as it is not fair to them or the other person.

I quite agree. I'm not attempting to judge anyone on this matter. But you admit it would be strange (maybe). I'm simply trying to understand what is (to me) an ironic viewpoint. I have a bagful of gay friends in different countries and while I havent asked I've never heard that kind of viewpoint before.

	25-05-2002 01:40									#81
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I quite agree. I'm not attempting to judge anyone on this matter. But you admit it would be strange (maybe). I'm simply trying to understand what is (to me) an ironic viewpoint. I have a bagful of gay friends in different countries and while I havent asked I've never heard that kind of viewpoint before.

I see nothing ironic about it, because (as I said), the gay rights movement isn't about anything other than saying it is wrong to condemn people based on whom they choose to date. It would be utter hypocrisy for any advocate of gay rights to turn around and then condemn people for whom they choose *not* to date. If you know of such folks, I will gladly give tell them what is what.

But, IMO, you were also trying to draw MrFun and me into the quite irrelevant argument of defending our decisions of who we would and would not date. And that's just not a question I choose to dignify by answering, as it shouldn't be asked.

	25-05-2002 01:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov This is at least the third time in this thread alone you have made up things I supposedly have said. When did I ever say it was merely an issue of attraction?

Boris I didnt make anything up that you have said. I can use quotation marks. It was a comment by me based upon what MF said.

quote: I haven't avoided any issue, as I've said quite clearly (though you seem to have selective reading abilities) that it doesn't matter what makes you uncomfortable dating someone. That's your right. Ipso facto. You could not want to date the most gorgeous woman in the world because you find out she's a Jew and you just happen to loathe Jews. That would be your choice. And I would fully support you in that choice, so long as you didn't try to say nobody should date a Jew or try to promote laws to ban Gentile/Jew dating.

I'm sure you would and I'm also sure you'd trot out the word bigot too.

	25-05-2002 01:41									#83
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Boris you type too fast!

	25-05-2002 04:35									#84
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'm sure you would and I'm also sure you'd trot out the word bigot too.

What? I would what? I don't understand what your sentence is referring to.

I wouldn't call you a bigot for not dating Jews. I'd call you a bigot for not hiring one, though. Hopefully you can see the difference.

quote: Boris you type too fast!

Comes from a habit of doing college papers the night before...

	25-05-2002 04:47									#85
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH MF I'm not trying to deliberately bait you. Perhaps I'm being unclear. You've said you would feel uncomfortable in a relationship with a bisexual man (and now) despite the fact that you find them attractive. So what I'm trying to understand is why? For me this is like saying I'm attracted to that woman but I would be uncomfortable in a relationship with her because she's black, hindu, white, got three breasts (pick one). Isnt that the essence of prejudice, and isnt that what homophobia is?

You thought I would not return, didn't you?

But to answer your question in addition to Bori's answer:

I can engage in casual sex with bisexuals but I would not want to have a monogamous relationship with a bisexual.
And to be honest, I cannot really pinpoint on why this is the case with me.

I wish I could give you a crystal-clear reason on why I am weary of a monogamous relationship with a bisexual man, while at the same time, I affirm respect for their identity and equal legitimacy.

	25-05-2002 04:53									#86
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D'OH! Now MrFun you've gone and done what you oughtn't have done! Legitimized the question by answering it!

	25-05-2002 05:27									#87
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So you get into a relationship with every good-looking person you bump into, Spencer? I don't think so. Someone's personality is determined by his/her religious background, sexuality, intelligence, sense of humor, generally a person's world views and ideas on whatever and all that stuff. If one or more of these things don't match... bad luck.

Is a devout Christian religiously intolerant for not dating a Muslim, (s)he otherwise finds attractive (and not only physically attractive)?
Or rather more extreme, but very illustrative... If a man is dating a woman who turns out to be a man (ever seen Jerry Springer ). Why would he not continue loving "her" if everything seemed to be going perfectly well in their relationship?

	25-05-2002 05:34									#88
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quote: Or rather more extreme, but very illustrative... If a man is dating a woman who turns out to be a man (ever seen Jerry Springer ). Why would he not continue loving "her" if everything seemed to be going perfectly well in their relationship?

Bad example. I would certainly say the first man would have grounds to dump the other one based purely on the fact that he deceived him. Lying is not something one should be expected to stomach easily.

	25-05-2002 05:36									#89
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I can engage in casual sex with bisexuals but I would not want to have a monogamous relationship with a bisexual. And to be honest, I cannot really pinpoint on why this is the case with me. I wish I could give you a crystal-clear reason on why I am weary of a monogamous relationship with a bisexual man, while at the same time, I affirm respect for their identity and equal legitimacy.

That seems like an honest answer. All I'm saying is that maybe its time to think about why that is.

	25-05-2002 05:42									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Or rather more extreme, but very illustrative... If a man is dating a woman who turns out to be a man (ever seen Jerry Springer ). Why would he not continue loving "her" if everything seemed to be going perfectly well in their relationship?

Well I guess this may illustrate my point of view. He should continue loving her, whats changed? I'm sure it would be a shock, but either you care or you dont.