29-05-2002 20:12									#181
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Yep...

People are afraid of the ICC being politicized want politicians in the Security Council to decide when to have a tribunal! The irony is great

	29-05-2002 20:13									#182
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You know, politicization is good when it comes from us, bad when it comes from them...

	29-05-2002 20:14									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Any international court will be political. I'm not saying that's a reason not to have this new court, but come on, you know there will be all sorts of political wrangling going on. -Arrian

Much less than there would be if we merely relyed on the Security Council to call ad hoc tribunals. A permanent court would be much less likely to vote based on political beliefs, because it is composed, not of politicians, but justices... and the fact that their need not be political gains given up simply so there can be a trial in the first place.

	29-05-2002 20:15									#184
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quote: You know, politicization is good when it comes from us, bad when it comes from them...

Oh yes them. Evil Eurocoms. Damn you Roland, why are you so socialist .

	29-05-2002 20:17									#185
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Ad hoc courts with political veto always smell of bias. Justice must also be seen to be done - I for one don't want patchwork justice.

	29-05-2002 20:19									#186
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That's your problem, Roland. We in the US ALWAYS see patchwork justice .

	29-05-2002 20:26									#187
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I know, I know....

Btw, when exactly did "trial by plea bargain" become constitutiuonal ?

	29-05-2002 20:27									#188
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Constitution? We still follow that thing?

	29-05-2002 20:30									#189
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At least people quote it all the time when they
a) want a gun
b) search for an authorative definition of "republic"

	29-05-2002 20:32									#190
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That's just David Floyd... we ignore him.

The scary thing is... probably half of all Americans probably don't even know how the government works.

	29-05-2002 22:21									#191
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I didn't even notice this had just turned into another Roland-Imran ****fest

As for the topic - the US will never invade any allied country, even if Americans are going to be sentenced there.

	30-05-2002 06:03									#192
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Roland, the primary purpose of the United Nations is to secure peace. Punishment of war criminals is only a secondary purpose. I believe the above posts have illustrated how the new International Criminal Court could be used by some to make "war by other means." A couple of good examples of the latter would be for Turkey to file accusations against the Kurds in Iraq, Greece against Turkey, India against Pakistan, Israel against the Palestinians, the Palestinians against the Israelis, Vietnam against the Cambodians. Etc. etc. etc. The fact that heretofore this is not gotten on hand was because the approval of the Security Council was needed to go forward. I think that accusations of of war crimes and intervention by United Nations into a conflict through the International Criminal Court could exacerbate an ongoing dispute which primarily needs a political settlement rather than legal intervention.

In earlier posts, you have said that it is better to have a permanent, as opposed to an ad hoc, court. Perhaps this is true. But, this does not necessarily require that Security Council approval be avoided . The one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Without Security Council approval, the International Criminal Court is a positive danger to peace.

	30-05-2002 06:11									#193
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quote: I think that accusations of of war crimes and intervention by United Nations into a conflict through the International Criminal Court could exacerbate an ongoing dispute which primarily needs a political settlement rather than legal intervention.

Other way around. Legal intervention is the only thing that can end a conflict that can't be solved by political settlement.

quote: Without Security Council approval, the International Criminal Court is a positive danger to peace.

Why? Why should the Security Council have vetos over court cases? This is what we call a lack of checks and balances.

	30-05-2002 06:54									#194
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Imran, Because the SC has the exclusive jurisdiction on matters of international security. They have to be consulted until there is a peace agreement.

	30-05-2002 23:48									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I think they call it "jingoism" though, I even doubt the word "chauvinism" exists in that language. Not certain though

We use both words, as they are not interchangable terms. I wouldn't use either to describe U.S. reaction to posts on this thread. I would call them self defense.

	30-05-2002 23:49									#196
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I was talking about the language point only, without any regard to the content.

I think Americans are always jingoists, regardless if they're self defending or not

(joke, Ming. I know only you are like that )

	31-05-2002 00:06									#197
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In the U.S. the term chauvanism is used when describing nationalist feelings regardless or time periods. We tend to use jingoism more in referring to the late 19th century actions of European countries (especially Britain).

	31-05-2002 00:07									#198
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lol

Here, chauvinism means any form of arrogance, not only national one (in the German language). Like many men are chauvinists towards women etc.

	31-05-2002 00:09									#199
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yeah, we use it in that sense as well. ( such as being a male chauvinist)

	31-05-2002 00:10									#200
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male chauvinist = ma chau = macho?

	31-05-2002 08:20									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Would you want a legal system where a bunch of government official sit around and decide "well, in this case we could do a court... but sorry, your dad's killers won't go to trial, nothing personal, it's politics, you know..."

Politics is part and parcel of the administration of international law and always has been. I can even name one "police action" to enforce international law that arguably violated that same principle off the top of my head.

I highly doubt that the Rome Statute has the power to change that unless of course you can tell me with a straight face that a Russian or Chinese general who orders the massacre of civilians is even remotely in danger of appearing before the ICC.

	31-05-2002 18:53									#202
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bump

	31-05-2002 21:56									#203
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DinoDoc, The silence of the promoters of the ICC speaks volumes, doesn't it? Virtually the only target in the future will be Israel and the US.

	31-05-2002 22:00									#204
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quote: I highly doubt that the Rome Statute has the power to change that unless of course you can tell me with a straight face that a Russian or Chinese general who orders the massacre of civilians is even remotely in danger of appearing before the ICC.

Russian general, probably. Chinese one, well that's pushing it. However, leaders in Africa will certainly be brought to trial. And in many other areas of the world (such as the Balkans, if it flares up again, the ME if things go down).

quote: DinoDoc, The silence of the promoters of the ICC speaks volumes, doesn't it? Virtually the only target in the future will be Israel and the US.

Time to get off the high horse. I love how the anti-ICCers say the only target will be Israel and the US. Kind of like the Democrats in the US who say the Republicans will end social security without offering any proof of it.

	31-05-2002 22:46									#205
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Imran, Then please explain to me why did the ICC promoters insist on bypassing the SC where the US has a veto?

	31-05-2002 22:47									#206
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You know there are 4 other states have vetoes on the Security Council, stop being so nationalistic .

Why should they have to go through the SC, that just slows things down and make the whole process political.

	01-06-2002 01:28									#207
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The alleged slowness of the SC is simply not the issue is it. The issue is war and peace. The ICC directly treads on matters under the exclusive province of the SC.

The promoters tried to bypass the SC for the simple reason that there was only one country with a veto impeding their plans. That country was the US, the only country with a veto to not ratify the ICC.

Last edited by Ned on 01-06-2002 at 08:43

	01-06-2002 08:32									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You know there are 4 other states have vetoes on the Security Council, stop being so nationalistic .

Why do you keep forgeting that when you find it convenient?

quote: Why should they have to go through the SC, that just slows things down and make the whole process political.

You've just admitted that the whole process will still be political even after the Rome statute. So what would be the difference?

	01-06-2002 08:36									#209
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I dont like the Dutch. Everytime im in an Blen MKIV I try and bomb as much apartment building and civilians in Eindhoven as possible.

	02-06-2002 01:29									#210
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