28-05-2002 18:34									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Rah: You are sooooooo easily influenced....

Yep, Yep, Yep.

But not really. If these are a fair sampling ( ) of what are supposed allies are thinking, I'd hate to think what our real (ones that will actually do something besides just blowing impotent hot air) enemies are thinking.

RAH

	28-05-2002 19:52									#152
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Roland, The anti-exclusion clause specifically addresses "immunity." Here is the article in full.

Article 27


Irrelevance of official capacity

1. This Statute shall apply equally to all persons without any distinction based on official capacity. In particular, official capacity as a Head of State or Government, a member of a Government or parliament, an elected representative or a government official shall in no case exempt a person from criminal responsibility under this Statute, nor shall it, in and of itself, constitute a ground for reduction of sentence.

2. Immunities or special procedural rules which may attach to the official capacity of a person, whether under national or international law, shall not bar the Court from exercising its jurisdiction over such a person.

	28-05-2002 20:23									#153
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Good, let's go searching....

Art 98.1.

quote: 1. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international law with respect to the State or diplomatic immunity of a person or property of a third State, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of that third State for the waiver of the immunity.

So, functional immunity for an acting president - against arrest etc. Not against responsibility, but that is no change to int. law anyway.

	28-05-2002 20:44									#154
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I'll second RAH's take on the matter. Gee, Marcus I wonder why Americans fear that such a court would target Americans? Listen to yourself! You're practically frothing at the mouth.

All nations, and their citizens should be accountable. But if a court is going to be used as a political tool to target one nation by its enemies, that's not justice. And that's what we fear, whether that fear is reasonable or not. There has got to be a way to compromise on the issue, because I think an international court for war crimes is a great idea, and will be more effective with us than without us.

Hypocrisy? Yes, there is US hypocrisy here, and I don't like it. But I am also confused by the apparent the inability (or unwillingness) of some Euros to understand American concerns about the court.

-Arrian

	28-05-2002 20:52									#155
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quote: All nations, and their citizens should be accountable. But if a court is going to be used as a political tool to target one nation by its enemies, that's not justice.

No and assuming that's how it'll be used is just paranoia.

	28-05-2002 20:53									#156
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I can understand when one has concerns. I also have some issues with the ICC statute.

What I do not understand is that every argument about international agreements in the US boils down to an outburst of chauvinism, "we won't let those barefoot barbarians judge what our glorious nation does", "all are against us", and in which the treaty is grossly distorted. And that is what the Bush admin has spouted, and Helms (or whichever idiot came up with the Hague-invasion-clause) is just the most extreme manifestation of that problem.

	28-05-2002 20:54									#157
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I think they call it "jingoism" though, I even doubt the word "chauvinism" exists in that language.

Not certain though

	28-05-2002 20:54									#158
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Yeah, if a US military leader was found to commit some war crimes then why shouldn't they be tried? It'd be the same if it was an Iraqi, a Brit, a Dutchman or Slobodan.

	28-05-2002 20:56									#159
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..everything taken back


http://dict.leo.org/

	28-05-2002 21:02									#160
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I think the US gov't is in fact being paranoid about this - the Bush administration has gone more and more unilateral, and much of it has to do with the "with us or against us" mindset they've fallen into. I mentioned the fears about the court not because I personally feel that those fears are reason enough to oppose it, but because that is the reason given. And though I don't agree, I can understand why there is concern.

Like I said, there has to be a way to compromise... some way of protecting against witch hunts.

By the way, Roland, I happen to agree with you most of the time. However, even you must admit that the rest of the world often does a good job of showing us that they are "all against us." (with the exceptions of the UK and Israel)

-Arrian

	28-05-2002 21:05									#161
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I'll admit that, but do you not think that the US often does a good job of showing the rest of the world that they feel themselves to be superior to the rest of us and outside the boundaries of international law?

	28-05-2002 21:12									#162
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Yes, like Rome did. We don't want to tread that path (ie, we should learn from history).

	28-05-2002 21:13									#163
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And the UK did too.

	28-05-2002 21:15									#164
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Well, the UK was a bit better actually... it did participate in the international sphere, and was involved very much with diplomacy. Didn't usually go it alone, but had allies, which it tried not to piss off too much .

	28-05-2002 21:15									#165
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"However, even you must admit that the rest of the world often does a good job of showing us that they are "all against us." (with the exceptions of the UK and Israel)"

Yes, but a good deal of that is created by your government, at least as far as western europe is concerned. With the "war on terror", you lost us with the "axis of evil".... and that includes the UK, even Blair gets the jitters about that. The steel tariffs are another excellent way to piss off everyone.

	28-05-2002 21:17									#166
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Agreed, Mike and Imran. Unilateral actions with a strong whiff of arrogance match up pretty well with Rome and Imperial Britain. Not that I find that surprising. The Brits learned it from the Romans and passed it on to us.

The issue here is that the US government has gotten to the point where they don't trust anyone (again, excepting Britain, Israel, and Canada, which I left out the first time... oops). That's bad. I was just trying to point out that there are external, as well as internal, reasons for it.

-Arrian

p.s. cross-post with Roland. Of course bad US policy has resulted in some of the hostility. That's so self-evident I didn't feel the need to mention it. And I agree about steel tariffs, but after all, I seem to remember something about EU agricultural protectionism as well. Again, the sword cuts both ways.

Last edited by Arrian on 28-05-2002 at 21:24

	28-05-2002 21:21									#167
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quote: The issue here is that the US government has gotten to the point where they don't trust anyone (again, excepting Britain, Israel, and Canada, which I left out the first time... oops). That's bad. I was just trying to point out that there are external, as well as internal, reasons for it.

That is true, however, I think the mindset of the US is one towards distrust of others. Remember, it all started when Washington warned of entagling alliances. For some wierd reason, we Americans haven't grown out of that (which made sense back then) and still distrust those who are not American, even though Americans are a vastly diverse group ourselves.

It really is wierd. We joke about how some people think about black Sikorsky helocopters with 'UN' on the side... but it might not be a joke to a lot of people.

	28-05-2002 21:25									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The issue here is that the US government has gotten to the point where they don't trust anyone

I'm not so sure this is a matter of trust. Sometimes it seems to be a matter of understanding problems. When Cheney spells out a ban on criticising Bush because he's a war time president, it is so absurd it makes my toenails dance the mambo.

	28-05-2002 21:32									#169
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That, Imran, is what you get when you take a fundamentally isolationist nation (in that its people want to be isolationist) and thrust it onto the world stage. This is what happened with the US following WWII. The government became interventionist - getting involved in conflicts all over the world, and taking a leading role in Nato and the UN. But the average American didn't really want that. I think there is a mindset here that the US got sucked into world events we wanted no part of, and then got blamed for screwing up. That's a simplistic argument, but hell, most Americans are simple (at least when it comes to their view of the outside world). And as the criticism continues from all over, we get more and more reactionary. It's called polarization, I believe, and I don't like it. I'm just trying to understand it... and maybe bring others to as well. I think Tony Blair was trying to get at it in his recent speech. He was largely ridiculed for being an American lacky, but he had a point.

-Arrian

	28-05-2002 21:40									#170
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quote: That's a simplistic argument, but hell, most Americans are simple (at least when it comes to their view of the outside world).

Simple in many other things as well .

I agree with all your points, Arrian. However, I (and I think you'll agree) believe that Americans have to wake up! They have to realize that we are a superpower and the hegemon, and thus lead by example. Internationalism isn't a bad thing at all. In fact, most instances of internationalism are good things!

One thing Americans don't understand is that RIGHT NOW we should internationalize, because the organizations and structures that are formed will be based on our ideas, because we are the superpower. We will have, probably, the greatest say in how it comes about. This is the time to take advantage. If we wait (like we are now) then international structures which we'll have to join, because we won't be able to go it alone, will take the ideas of the superpower hegemon of that future time.

	28-05-2002 21:41									#171
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You people would have to start an interesting thread while i am on vacation, wouldn"t you?

	28-05-2002 21:49									#172
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Good point, Imran. Very good point. And you're right, I agree with you.

US foreign policy is terribly reactive, and has been so long as I can remember. We should be more proactive. We should be flooding the UN with proposals of our own. Instead of just rejecting treaties we don't like, we should be coming up with alternatives. At the very least, it would be good PR. But seriously, successive US administrations have squandered a period of unprecendented US hegemony by failing to step up and lead by moral example. Why in the hell didn't WE propose and set up a court for war crimes? Because we've been reactive instead of proactive... and paranoid to boot. Silly, really, and potentially tragic.

-Arrian

	28-05-2002 21:50									#173
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Looks like the vacation didn't become you anyway...

	28-05-2002 21:51									#174
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a vacation didn't become him? what is that supposed to mean?

	28-05-2002 21:54									#175
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My Poly addiction got the best of me, Roland.

	28-05-2002 23:19									#176
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The top dog traditionally has had to look at the bottom feeding scavangers rummaging through it's garbage and wonder if they're planning on working together to topple him.

Paranoia at it's best. A sorry state of affairs, but predictable.

RAH

	29-05-2002 00:26									#177
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Stepping aside from the American bashing for a moment, why is this treaty necessary? What is wrong with the current system were the Security Council authorizes war crimes trials in particular instances?

From the selfish American point of view, if the Security Council has to authorized war crimes trials, America can protect itself from malicious accusations by its veto. Why should we give up this power?

All told, this clearly is a power grab by those who want the bypass the Security Council in invoking war crimes prosecution. In my humble opinion, this is not a good idea.

	29-05-2002 19:36									#178
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Ned, no one (least of all Roland) has been able to answer that question. Here's hoping that you have better luck.

	29-05-2002 20:06									#179
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"why is this treaty necessary? What is wrong with the current system were the Security Council authorizes war crimes trials in particular instances?"

Would you want a legal system where a bunch of government official sit around and decide "well, in this case we could do a court... but sorry, your dad's killers won't go to trial, nothing personal, it's politics, you know..."

	29-05-2002 20:12									#180
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Any international court will be political. I'm not saying that's a reason not to have this new court, but come on, you know there will be all sorts of political wrangling going on.

-Arrian