25-05-2002 17:55									#1
	US calls for a Netherlands Invasion Clause Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If an American should ever appear in front of the International Criminal Court, the American governement may use military force to get that person out of there.

The media (Le Monde for one) label this the "Netherlands Invasion Clause".

In other words:

If:

- An American ever blatently violate human rights.
- And is stupid enough to get caught in a country that has signed the ICC treaty.

Then:

- The US may use military force to get that human rights violater out
- thus invading a souvereign nation that is a formal ally of the USA.


This obviously show how much the US values NATO and the UN. This also shows how much the US values human rights. And this shows the hypocracy of the US that puts Slobo on trial before The Hague, but won't allow it's own citizens to be subject to the same.

The UN was about to give in, but then Britain, France and also China (who didn't sign the treaty either) put their foot down. Nice to know who your friends are, seems China likes us more than the USA.

	25-05-2002 18:05									#2
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http://www.vocri.org/03292002/closer.html

Other proposals would authorize the use of force to free an American from the court, dubbed by Europeans as the "The Hague invasion clause."

	25-05-2002 18:24									#3
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This court is a tool of harrasing countries on political background and used only against the weak and unpopular.

	25-05-2002 18:26									#4
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afraid you might get arrested Eli?

	25-05-2002 18:27									#5
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I like your avatar.

A befuddled garlic bulb seems very appropriate, somehow.

	25-05-2002 18:36									#6
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Slobo is there for a good reason.

And USA is hypocrites I admit.

But this court is a political tool... if there was such a thing as 'impartial justice' why would election of judges in supreme courts in all countries be such a political event?

So will it be in the international court too, big struggle about judge positions and lots of political games behind the scenes. Not just justice at work.

I would like everyone to sign it though. In time, it may evolve to a really cool institution, and once everyone in every corner of the planet knows about it, it may lead to decrease of war crimes (if not wars)

	25-05-2002 18:38									#7
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US.

We know what the US think of international treaties; they are only good to use against other countries.

	25-05-2002 19:21									#8
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Ha! Thats just all their plan on their war on drugs! They gonna smuggel some human rights violater right in ... and than ... BOOOM. Its all a conspiracy!

	25-05-2002 19:56									#9
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It's all bluff of course, the US is totally powerles to get a warcriminal out of The Hague by force, unless it wants to trigger WW3.

	25-05-2002 20:13									#10
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The US would never use force to remove soeone from the Hague. That would spell the end of NATO, which we find more important.

	25-05-2002 20:20									#11
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Tell that to Jesse Helms and Shrubya.

	25-05-2002 20:24									#12
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Sure, the SEALS could do it and you wouldnt even know till the next day.

I agree, the court is political. People actually want to arrest pilots for errant bombs, how stupid. If we wish not to participate, then you cant touch us.

	25-05-2002 20:25									#13
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First, I think Helms is retiring. Second, it's simply another case of you overreacting. This was a proposal by some people in Congress. There's nothing in that article that states this as US policy.

	25-05-2002 20:27									#14
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FG, it's not that we couldn't do it. It's that we wouldn't do it. Sure, we might get our rocks off rescuing some mass murderer like Kissinger from the court's clutches, but we'd soon be crying alone as we were booted out of NATO for launching a military operation against a NATO member.

	25-05-2002 20:30									#15
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Kissiner isnt a war criminal. What proof does anyone he did anything wrong? They have the chance to arrest him in UK, UK delined sighting poor evidence.

	25-05-2002 20:31									#16
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quote: Sure, the SEALS could do it and you wouldnt even know till the next day.

Thus starting WW3

quote: People actually want to arrest pilots for errant bombs, how stupid.

No they don't. You can't try someone for something like that, unless the pilot deliberatly wanted to kill as many civilians as possible.

quote: If we wish not to participate, then you cant touch us.

If you are in another country, you can and will be arrested. Nothing you can do about it.

quote: There's nothing in that article that states this as US policy.

Shrubya has threathened to sign it.

	25-05-2002 20:31									#17
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hmm.....my keys dont seem to work anymore on the first tap.

	25-05-2002 20:36									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Thus starting WW3 .

doubt it

quote: No they don't. You can't try someone for something like that, unless the pilot deliberatly wanted to kill as many civilians as possible.

Which we havent, so why does the tribunal persist in looking into silly claims from Baghdad and former admin in Belgrade.

quote: If you are in another country, you can and will be arrested. Nothing you can do about it.

Hence why I said ; spec ops do it all the time. In fact, seals are trained to break prisoners out of jail that the government feels has been wrongly accused. If bush authorizes it, then so it is. My advice would be to not take any.

	25-05-2002 20:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Kissiner isnt a war criminal. What proof does anyone he did anything wrong?

He ordered the bombing of civilians in Cambodia and Laos. He orchestrated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the Chilean coup, and the Indonesian invasion of East Timor. The man is a mass murderer and war criminal and needs to pay for his crimes against humanity.

The only difficulty Kissinger has faced so far is that he was subpeonaed in France to testify about Chile. He left the coutrny within hours of getting the subpeona.

	25-05-2002 20:48									#20
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quote: so why does the tribunal persist in looking into silly claims from Baghdad and former admin in Belgrade

cause it's impartial. every claim is examined, as it should be.

quote: doubt it

You are talking about American troops, being ordered by the American governement, to kill dutch troops/police on dutch soil. you honestly think everyone will just let the US do that?

Besides, the US won't be able to rescue anyone. As soon as an American is arrested, the number of guards will be tripled. and how will the americans even get in and out of Europe just like that? It will be a bloodbath. With dreadfull consquences...

	25-05-2002 20:49									#21
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Che the cambodian thing we dont know. There were reports of whole villages being wiped off the face of the earth, those can never be verified. Only a few years later, pol pot cleaned out the countryside.

And Nixon was responsible for the rest of that.

	25-05-2002 20:51									#22
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"orchestrated"

Wow. Overeaching there, aren't you Che?

MarkL: This is a silly troll. Who proposed the "Hague Invasion Clause" anyway?

	25-05-2002 20:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus cause it's impartial. every claim is examined, as it should be. You are talking about American troops, being ordered by the American governement, to kill dutch troops/police on dutch soil. you honestly think everyone will just let the US do that? Besides, the US won't be able to rescue anyone. As soon as an American is arrested, the number of guards will be tripled. and how will the americans even get in and out of Europe just like that? It will be a bloodbath. With dreadfull consquences...

I wouldnt doubt the Seals. 12 of them with no airsupport held off 30,000 iraqi's.


I doubt the court would do somthing to provoke us like that, knowing the consequences. And it all depends. If you can find a basterd who likes to shoot children, and present evidence that he did so. We can take care of it, we have courts to you know. We dont need a phony one in the hague.

	25-05-2002 20:57									#24
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"No they don't. You can't try someone for something like that, unless the pilot deliberatly wanted to kill as many civilians as possible."

That's one of the purposes of a court -- to see if the action was deliberate, premeditated etc..

Why don't you all build up your own arms so that you don't have to rely on the U.S. to defend you and then expect us to be tried in one of your political courts for doing your dirty work. Put in a few judges from Israel, the United States and a few truly disinterested countries and we might think about taking the world kangaroo court serious.

	25-05-2002 20:58									#25
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quote: Who proposed the "Hague Invasion Clause" anyway?

Helms. But other congressmen, and specifically the media, gave the clause it's nickname.

quote: I wouldnt doubt the Seals. 12 of them with no airsupport held off 30,000 iraqi's.

Yes, Iraqi's. Third world nation.


And if you deal with your own human rights offenders, good for you. The Hague will let you deal with them, but if you don't I'd advice them not to travel abroad.

	25-05-2002 20:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "orchestrated" Wow. Overeaching there, aren't you Che?

One must use hyperbole to crack through FG's world view.

	25-05-2002 21:44									#27
	Re: US calls for a Netherlands Invasion Clause Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus If an American should ever appear in front of the International Criminal Court, the American governement may use military force to get that person out of there.

If other nations are trying Americans for legitimate crimes committed in the boundaries of that country, I have no problem with that. I will go even further and say that "legitimate" is interpreted broadly in favor of the host country. (So harsh laws in Turkey, Singapore, Arabia would not be met with force...diplomatic please...not force.)

But if countries seize our citizens unfairly as the Barbary pirates or British did in the early 1800's, we would reserve the right to get them back with force.

I doubt we would invade Holland though. The Germans have reserved use of Dutch roads for easy access to France. They have bought the franchise for that!

quote: The UN was about to give in, but then Britain, France and also China (who didn't sign the treaty either) put their foot down. Nice to know who your friends are, seems China likes us more than the USA.

Hyperbole.

"But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao,
you ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow.
Don't you know know it's gonna be alright.
Alright. Alright." --The Beatles

	25-05-2002 21:50									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Why don't you all build up your own arms so that you don't have to rely on the U.S. to defend you and then expect us to be tried in one of your political courts for doing your dirty work

To label war crimes as "dirty work"is to grant them acceptability. Are you prepared to do so, Lincoln?

	25-05-2002 21:51									#29
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If some US officer or soldier or citizen commits crimes against humanity in Europe or anywhere else that is clearly(!) shown, i believe US Courts will handle it and prosecute. If evidence is shown ofcourse.

And even if some where taken to court in Hague, i couldn't see SEALs or anyone else breaking there.. maybe diplomatic pressures to get them out. Though i'd love to see Dubya taking m-16s to both hands and dropping out of a chopper and going 'blue team go go go'

	25-05-2002 21:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny To label war crimes as "dirty work"is to grant them acceptability. Are you prepared to do so, Lincoln?

The 'dirty' work is engaging in battle and then being hauled into a foreign court for actually engaging in war. War crimes are one thing but witch hunts for political reasons are another. We, so far are not convinced that the court will not be misused.