26-05-2002 19:06									#91
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before the ICC is even starting the US is already whining and *****ing. can't wait till the first Americans are put on trial It will be the best thing since sliced bread

	26-05-2002 20:08									#92
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Unbelievable, that is all I can say. The worst nightmare about the new court are about to come true.

I say, pull the plug on the UN now!

	26-05-2002 20:30									#93
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quote: The Bush administration has even asked the United Nations whether it could rescind Washington's signature from the treaty, signed by former U.S. President Bill Clinton at the end of his term.

Good to know that Bush is working for human rights.

	26-05-2002 21:26									#94
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American rights, not human rights. There's obviously a difference.

	26-05-2002 21:58									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I would sincerely hope over an issue like this that the UK would side with the EU, after all, it would be the US in the wrong...

We'd sell goods to both the US and Europe and cut a profit that way. So would you.

	26-05-2002 22:04									#96
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Marcus, were you born that stupid? Or did you need to study?

It should be pretty obvious that we are not going to join some organization like this that is an excuse for Euro leftists to attack American rightists. So give it up...and go back to re-organizing your pathetic peacekeepers.

	26-05-2002 22:14									#97
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[QUOTE]The Bush administration has even asked the United Nations whether it could rescind Washington's signature from the treaty, signed by former U.S. President Bill Clinton at the end of his term.]

Yes the Bush administration is "even" asking that. Clinton signed that treaty despite concerns and without the approval of Congress. Wouldn't any country do the same in a similar situation?

	26-05-2002 22:28									#98
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quote: It should be pretty obvious that we are not going to join some organization like this that is an excuse for Euro leftists to attack American rightists.

Doesn't matter. as soon as the criminals you are protecting leave your borders, they will be arrested and shipped to The Hague.

	26-05-2002 22:36									#99
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someone should tell the Euros that CtP does not model reality

you cannot attack oppoenents with lawyer units when your opponents have a much bigger military

european agression will not be allowed to act against the US, we will not allow it

Jon Miller

	26-05-2002 22:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Doesn't matter. as soon as the criminals you are protecting leave your borders, they will be arrested and shipped to The Hague.

keep smoking!

* TCO suddenly realizes why Marcus is so loopy...

	26-05-2002 22:47									#101
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Why does this need to end in UE-USA war ?
The goal of ICC is only to judge war criminals and criminals against humanity. It's not supposed to be a political tool to fight either USA either Europe either anything else. It's targeted toward ONE PERSON, not a ONE COUNTRY.

What pisses many Americans off is that they see this ICC as something that people will use against USA and only against them.
What pisses many Europeans is the hypocrisis of USA that just don't want to be accountable before anything while they feel they have the right to act anywhere in the world as they want.

Let's keep it simple : if someone is guilty of war crimes of crimes against humanity, and he is caught, he'll be carried to this ICC that will investigate and judge him. I don't see anything bad with it, I always thought that it was appropriate to punish criminals. And I don't see where an American war criminal is different of an anyothernationality war criminal, so I don't see why it's such a big deal for USA.

	26-05-2002 22:51									#102
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because the US is one nation and has many enemies (or nations which want it brought down a peg)

therefore, it is easy to imagine the situation were the court is used as a tool against us (like the UN is being used against Israel by the Arab states)

a question, how are justices determined?

how are are those to be prosecuted determined?

Jon Miller

	26-05-2002 22:52									#103
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The problem that we Americans have with this is that there is ample opportunity - and already plenty of talk - to use this as a tool to strong arm the foreign policy and to tie the hands of our military. I'm not saying that we use war crimes as a legitimate tactic, but when someone wants to try you for every errant bomb, it creates a serious problem.

	26-05-2002 22:54									#104
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It's just stupid the US uses international courts against it's enemies, like Slobo, but are terribly afraid someday someone might do the same against them.

hypocrites.

	26-05-2002 23:18									#105
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no w2e see you and others talking about using it against us

we are not going to develope weapons for our enemies (or those who wisht o be our enemies)

Jon Miller

	26-05-2002 23:19									#106
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we wnt nothing but peace with europe

it is you that is always complaining about us and saying that we should be acted against

we are fine with you, why can't you be fine with us?

Jon Miller

	26-05-2002 23:20									#107
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As I recall, we certainly weren't the only ones who wanted to see Slobo tried.

	27-05-2002 00:57									#108
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We shjould not sign the ICC treaty, but if we do this is a reasonable amendment.

Not that we should be abroad at all, but in the absence of isolationism I would like to see a way to protect Americans from being tried by a court with no jurisdiction over them, which I define as any non-US court.

	27-05-2002 01:25									#109
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If Americans travel to foreign countries aren't they subject to the laws of those countries?

	27-05-2002 02:08									#110
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quote: As I recall, we certainly weren't the only ones who wanted to see Slobo tried.

Yes you were. NATO was for, and the security council voted in favor of it. The USA is in NATO and the security council.

quote: If Americans travel to foreign countries aren't they subject to the laws of those countries?

Yes they are. But Americans refuse to accept this.

	27-05-2002 02:11									#111
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I said not the only ones. It takes more than our vote to approve something that NATO or the security council does.

	27-05-2002 02:27									#112
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But the US could have used their veto. They do it all the time, so why not now? They seem to hate international courts so much right?

Wrong. They don't hate international courts used against foreigners

hypocrites

	27-05-2002 02:41									#113
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My point was that any of the other nations with a veto could have used their veto as well, so it is erroneous to use Slobo as an example of the US using international courts against foreigners. All of Europe wanted him on trial just as much as we did, and they all had just as much say in it as we did.

	27-05-2002 03:08									#114
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yep, but the difference is that Europe is in favor of the ICC, and the US is not. Therefor, Europe's decisions have been consistent (pro yugoslavia court, pro international court) and the US has been hypocritic (pro yugoslavia court, against international court). Europe is fine with it's citizens being tried the same way as slobo, the US clearly is not.

double standards.

	27-05-2002 03:39									#115
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Europe had plenty of double standards during the age when they ruled the world. It is easier for them to practice moral clarity now that they are a bunch of washed out has beens.

	27-05-2002 07:10									#116
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by faded glory
Sure, the SEALS could do it and you wouldnt even know till the next day.
QUOTE]

Yeah, they did such a goof job of finding Bin Laden. Or Omar. Or Daniel Pearl...

	27-05-2002 07:34									#117
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara FG, it's not that we couldn't do it. It's that we wouldn't do it. Sure, we might get our rocks off rescuing some mass murderer like Kissinger from the court's clutches, but we'd soon be crying alone as we were booted out of NATO for launching a military operation against a NATO member.

:

Then we could sit back and laugh as we watched the various ill prepared, underdefended European nations either kiss our asses or try to defend themselves. What army would defend the EU? France would get indignant, but then a German somewhere would strap on a helmet with a spike on top of it. Britain would stay with us. Germany might go its own way. However, the U.S. would tremeble with fear over the combined might of Scandinavia, Austria, and the Netherlands! If the U.S. wasn't in NATO, Serbia could have made Europe its ***** (slight exaggeration) The U.S. is NATO. No U.S., no alliance.

	27-05-2002 08:17									#118
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quote: Europe is fine with it's citizens being tried the same way as slobo, the US clearly is not.

The US is clearly not in favor of having nations such as Iraq and China having the power to harass its military and citizens. The EU isn't faced with the same problem.

	27-05-2002 08:36									#119
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nationalist, you're clearly underestimating the power of finland. That's your mistake to make, and pain to take .
Our defense forces are might and glorious! Honor and glory!

And you should watch what you say, we might send our huge fleet, 70 hornets to kick your continent goodbye!

	27-05-2002 10:45									#120
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Marcus, the interchange regarding us being the only country wanting Slobo tried was surreal.

You stated that to be the case and than produced evidence that proved the opposite. That we were not the only country pushing this.

You amaze me.