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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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Actually, since I was playing AS Persia last night, I should correct that - it's an 8 attack. Still, that's hardcore. 8.3.2, every 10 turns.
It helped that I got an early MGL. 3x Guard Cavalry army... by my calculations that's a 12.4.3. 
Down went Babylon (repop, heh), Assyria (now an OCC, not long for the world), and I was able to deal with a Median incursion w/o much trouble (and got MGL #3 for 3x Guard Cav army #2  ). Media at least made me sweat with those 7.2.2. Elite Horsemen. MGL #2 rushed the Parthenon in Babylon.
It's kinda like being handed the Statue of Zeus... only it might be even better.
Con,
I suppose it depends on what type of game you and your son want to play. When I've played with a friend of mine, we typically restart until we're on seperate continents. We've started near each other before, and that simple = ancient warfare. The only question is the unit mix. It might be cool to have a game where you cannot even get at each other (reliably) until near the end, with Galliots (req. Exploration, IIRC).
-Arrian
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scaeva
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i think Im a cool kid.
I like the ancient stuff in this mod and enjoy playing it with my dad.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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Yes, I know. You can get to Standing Military, build barracks, and upgrade units there. But of course that doesn't come until 1/2 way through the 3rd age.
...
As for my government comparison:
City-States wins, HANDS DOWN.
It offers lower overall corruption, and of course it's communal corruption, so it allows me to build up areas that were heretofore useless. I could imagine Republic being slightly better if my empire was a certain perfect shape, and I had a leader handy to rush the Roman Forum small wonder. Otherwise...
City-States is like a combination of the best bits of Republic and Communism from the stock game. Communal corruption, commerce bonus, and cash rushing. I'm kicking myself for not realizing how awesome CS was before... all that time I wasted using Monarchy!
If anyone is interested, I can post the save tonight, so you can compare for yourselves.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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Yeah, I know. They realized that communism sucked and a) the humans didn't use it; and b) the AI did, to its doom. So they tried to fix that, and overcorrected. Then they added Fascism, a new and improved AI self-destruct mode.
The real problem is the combo of very low communal corruption (can't help that) and the trade bonus (and, to an extent, the ability to rush buy things with that extra cash). It's uberpowerful, IMO.
It might be a good idea to further reduce (or even eliminated entirely) the unit support for that government.
-Arrian
Last edited by Arrian on 01-12-2004 at 01:11
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Justus II
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Wow, great to see so much activity here! I generally just follow the forums at CFC and CDG, but thanks to a nudge from Watorrey  I see that this is where the action is!
The communal problem is the biggest thing we had to deal with (in terms of governments). Because the communal corruption basically got better as the empire got bigger, about the only thing I could use to counteract it was unit support. From my tests, City States should be ideal for a spread-out yet peaceful empire. If you have a large military (3 or more units per city/town) unit support should actually drive City State into the red. That, and the War Weariness (City States has max WW) should make it hard to be a war monger in that government. We also tried to offset it by allowing a second FP for Republic and Empire, but not for City State or Oligarchy.
Republic generally did best in most cases, although at 2xOCN or more, Empire definitely showed the advantage. If you have a small military (1-2 units/city), then City States is competitive with Republic, if you include the extra FP for Republic. Republic (and Empire) also get the faster worker rate.
As for the early governments, don't overlook Thing Law, or Theocracy. You can reach them much earlier (with the slowed tech pace, up to 100 turns sooner than Monarchy), and they both allow for improved worker speed, which is a big boost early. Thing Law also removes the despotism penalty. It's great for agricutural civs or peaceful builders, who want to get good pop growth or build decent settler factories. Theocracy is actually ideal for Religious civs, who get a head start on that tech path, and a short anarchy. They get sped-up workers and can support a huge early army. Especially for Industrious civs, due to the anarchy-worker bug, all workers (slave/normal/ Industrious) are considered to have speed one during Anarchy (and Despotism in this mod). But hitting Thing Law and/or Theocracy unlock the industrious bonus.
Anyway, I'm glad to get some more feedback, I told Watorrey numerous times, I knew my government tests might be skewed by my play style (generally builder/trader early, then go for a small, higher-tech military when I'm ready to conquer). I tried some tests on civs with heavier military, but until you get some in-game data, it's hard to tell. If you'd like to post that save, I'd be glad to run the numbers through my comparison spreadsheet I used in testing. 
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Justus II
Wow, great to see so much activity here! I generally just follow the forums at CFC and CDG, but thanks to a nudge from Watorrey I see that this is where the action is!
The communal problem is the biggest thing we had to deal with (in terms of governments). Because the communal corruption basically got better as the empire got bigger, about the only thing I could use to counteract it was unit support. From my tests, City States should be ideal for a spread-out yet peaceful empire. If you have a large military (3 or more units per city/town) unit support should actually drive City State into the red. That, and the War Weariness (City States has max WW) should make it hard to be a war monger in that government. We also tried to offset it by allowing a second FP for Republic and Empire, but not for City State or Oligarchy.
Republic generally did best in most cases, although at 2xOCN or more, Empire definitely showed the advantage. If you have a small military (1-2 units/city), then City States is competitive with Republic, if you include the extra FP for Republic. Republic (and Empire) also get the faster worker rate.
As for the early governments, don't overlook Thing Law, or Theocracy. You can reach them much earlier (with the slowed tech pace, up to 100 turns sooner than Monarchy), and they both allow for improved worker speed, which is a big boost early. Thing Law also removes the despotism penalty. It's great for agricutural civs or peaceful builders, who want to get good pop growth or build decent settler factories. Theocracy is actually ideal for Religious civs, who get a head start on that tech path, and a short anarchy. They get sped-up workers and can support a huge early army. Especially for Industrious civs, due to the anarchy-worker bug, all workers (slave/normal/ Industrious) are considered to have speed one during Anarchy (and Despotism in this mod). But hitting Thing Law and/or Theocracy unlock the industrious bonus.
Anyway, I'm glad to get some more feedback, I told Watorrey numerous times, I knew my government tests might be skewed by my play style (generally builder/trader early, then go for a small, higher-tech military when I'm ready to conquer). I tried some tests on civs with heavier military, but until you get some in-game data, it's hard to tell. If you'd like to post that save, I'd be glad to run the numbers through my comparison spreadsheet I used in testing. |
In an hour or two, I'll post the save and you can compare Republic and City States for the empire I have going. I just have to get home, walk the dog, and eat first
I found that CS resulted in significantly lower corruption (using the F1 figures for lost commerce). The ability to build up my holdings in Phoenicia, Assyria and now Kolchia (?) - which were at or near max corruption under Monarchy & Republic - was a big factor as well.
Anyway, I'll post the save in a few... later,
-Arrian
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Justus II
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Because, strategically, that's... um... not very smart. It's a waste. If the option to upgrade is there, I will use it! If the intent of the mod is to emphasize replacement instead of upgrading, you should either:
1) increase upgrade cost such that it becomes more cost-effective to build new units from scratch; or
2) break the upgrade chains periodically.
Not that I'd be particularly pleased with that, personally, but hey, it's your Mod.
The result of the current setup is that I will end up rotating my troops around in order to get them upgraded w/o leaving myself defenseless during the upgrade process.
Luckily for me, most of my units at this point are horsemen, and thus can move 8 tiles/turn on my roads. Upgrading my spears to pikes will be more annoying.
-Arrian |
In addition to the Romans, at least 3 other civs get a civ-specific wonder that gives the 'vet units' flag (Macedon, Persia, Scythia). Iberia had it at one point as well, but it was dropped IIRC. So, if the wonder is built closer to the front, it gives a second option.
One other way of adding a limited option pre-barracks would be to modify one of the army-related small wonders (Military Academy, for example) to make it a vet-units small wonder, and make it available during the second age. At least then you would have a second city to upgrade at. I was thinking of Mil Academy, because the ability to cash-rush armies is pretty overpowered in C3C anyway, this would remove that option, but give you something else of value. 
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Justus II
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
So the Military Academy would do what then?
Just give you vet units????
I wonder (no pun intended) if it would even be worth building then ?? |
Well, it would allow vet units, and upgrades, an age and a half before any other non-capital city. That's a long time, and could be well worth the cost. Of course, the cost could be adjusted as well, it's just a suggestion to provide a (limited, and expensive) option to supplement the palace.
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