01-06-2002 14:01									#61
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx Just when you thought it was safe to turn on the TV. Seriously though, it isn't as if the Jews haven't used Suicide Tactics, as well. Back when the Late Menachem Begin, and his Resistance Cell, were fighting British Control over, what was then, Palestine, they undertook Suicide Missions, all the time. The Key Difference, of course, is that they had at least some possibility, of some of them, actually coming back Alive!

hi ,


now , how is one supposed to understand that , ...........

have a nice day

	01-06-2002 14:27									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx Just when you thought it was safe to turn on the TV. Seriously though, it isn't as if the Jews haven't used Suicide Tactics, as well. Back when the Late Menachem Begin, and his Resistance Cell, were fighting British Control over, what was then, Palestine, they undertook Suicide Missions, all the time. The Key Difference, of course, is that they had at least some possibility, of some of them, actually coming back Alive!

You contradict yourself. If there were high chances to get killed, then it's a very dangerous mission, not a suicide one.

quote: It is worth remembering that in those two camps in Lebanon (I won`t attempt to spell them) where thousands were murdered there were two groups of children that are often cited. One was a cadets group - basic military training and the like - the other was a band. None of the band survived the killings but most of the cadets did. Since then the argument has followed, and given the history it is hard to argue against, that it is an imperative that all children are taught the basic skills that they may need to survive in a similar situation. Worth bearing in mind we can`t judge them on our standards whenthey have been through so much.

They're not only taught to defend themselves, but to hate the children of the pigs and the monkeys(Jews) and to kill them when they can etc etc.

	01-06-2002 14:40									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Precisely, the only Useful, and not Incidently Non-War Crime, Suicide Mission, is one in which your Projected Survival Rate, is somewhere between 25% and 50%, for example.

This way you preserve, at least some, of the Effort, that goes into Training, Good Infiltration Troops.

That, and it's a lot easier, to get People, to Actually Volunteer for them!

	01-06-2002 14:49									#64
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx Precisely, the only Useful, and not Incidently Non-War Crime, Suicide Mission, is one in which your Projected Survival Rate, is somewhere between 25% and 50%, for example.

No.
Suicide is suicide. A Palestinian bomber knows that he will die, a soldier that goes on a dangerous mission knows that it is a risky one but plans and hopes to survive.
Even if there is only 1% chance for the mission to suceed, the soldier will still hope that they are good enough to suceed and survie.

	01-06-2002 15:13									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Government or Private orgainzation. Who was the commentator.

Government.
I don't know who the commentator was.... I got the video of the internet somewhere but I can't find the site anymore

	01-06-2002 16:18									#66
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Eli, you've never been in a Full-Fledged War, have you?

On average, the casualty rate in a World War II infantry division assured that all a division's riflemen would be killed off in a year or two of combat.

With, at least, a Dead Reckoning of such a Statistic, constantly in the back of their minds, a Soldier would often consider a Moderate Wound, which sent them Home, without too much Permanant Damage, to be their Best, Alternative. Is it any Wonder, that given the chance, they would Volunteer for a possible Suicide Mission, if its Successful Completion, was worth a Guaranteed, One-Way Ticket, Back to their Families?

	01-06-2002 16:25									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx Eli, you've never been in a Full-Fledged War, have you? On average, the casualty rate in a World War II infantry division assured that all a division's riflemen would be killed off in a year or two of combat. With, at least, a Dead Reckoning of such a Statistic, constantly in the back of their minds, a Soldier would often consider a Moderate Wound, which sent them Home, without too much Permanant Damage, to be their Best, Alternative. Is it any Wonder, that given the chance, they would Volunteer for a possible Suicide Mission, if its Successful Completion, was worth a Guaranteed, One-Way Ticket, Back to their Families?

hi ,

we are in it every day , ...............

have a nice day

	01-06-2002 18:38									#68
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx Seriously though, it isn't as if the Jews haven't used Suicide Tactics, as well.

a) they haven't - they planted bombs.

b) they used it against non-civilian targets - that's the exact difference between terror and freedom fighting. King David Hotel was a Brittish Central Command at the time.

quote: Back when the Late Menachem Begin, and his Resistance Cell, were fighting British Control over, what was then, Palestine, they undertook Suicide Missions, all the time. The Key Difference, of course, is that they had at least some possibility, of some of them, actually coming back Alive!

Then it's not a suicide mission

	01-06-2002 18:42									#69
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Since then the argument has followed, and given the history it is hard to argue against, that it is an imperative that all children are taught the basic skills that they may need to survive in a similar situation. Worth bearing in mind we can`t judge them on our standards whenthey have been through so much.

There's a difference between teaching children self-defense - and teaching them that "martyrdom for palestine is holy and is the only honorable thing" and "those children of satan, the jews, must be slain".


Furthermore, I would like to mention another thing.

IDF allows kids to go to a week's worth of military training in the 11th grade, so that they will be better mentally prepared for service a year or two later.

The first lesson we had was about rules of war, and illegal orders. We were given famous examples of illegal orders given in Israel, and we discussed them and what should have been done.

Then there was a lesson about the IDF's purity of arms - not hurting civilians and unarmed enemies. We were given examples how Israeli medics treated those people which attacked them a minute before, and how IDF troops, who were tricked by civilians and lead into an ambush, never took revenge on the civilians, even out of rage.

	01-06-2002 18:55									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov b) they used it against non-civilian targets - that's the exact difference between terror and freedom fighting. King David Hotel was a Brittish Central Command at the time. [/b]

How many civilians were killed in that bombing?



I do think that we should clearly descriminate between attacks targeted at civilians as clearly acts of terror and beyound justification.
A close second is that of deliberate carelessness in regard to civilian safety with the other sides people. This is also terrorism dressed up as the third option.
Third is the unfortunate casualties that occur in such actions deeply regretted - whoever is the victim - and actively avoided by the protagonist.

The unfortunate nature of war is that it is brutal, and few take the real considerations of the unfortunates caught between the opposing sides with any real seriousness. platitudes and empty words backed by the resumption of the same tactics or tough as it is articulated in the school yard.

	01-06-2002 19:03									#71
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov There's a difference between teaching children self-defense - and teaching them that "martyrdom for palestine is holy and is the only honorable thing" and "those children of satan, the jews, must be slain". Furthermore, I would like to mention another thing. IDF allows kids to go to a week's worth of military training in the 11th grade, so that they will be better mentally prepared for service a year or two later. The first lesson we had was about rules of war, and illegal orders. We were given famous examples of illegal orders given in Israel, and we discussed them and what should have been done. Then there was a lesson about the IDF's purity of arms - not hurting civilians and unarmed enemies. We were given examples how Israeli medics treated those people which attacked them a minute before, and how IDF troops, who were tricked by civilians and lead into an ambush, never took revenge on the civilians, even out of rage.

You are absolutely correct about the substance of much of what these children are being taught. And i do not doubt the sincerety of the Israeli army teaching, rules of engagement, and its conduct as a whole (I say as a whole because no army is perfect each has its malcontents).

The problem and the point that I was getting at is that things have happened and a desperate situation exists that allows or even makes it an imperative that these children get some kind of training (with the brainwashing thrown in for free).

Nothing happens in isolation, and the Palestinians have learnt as the Israeli`s have that when it comes to the crunch you can really only count on yourselves. The only difference being the Palestinians have world class F@ck ups as their leaders (the sooner the have elections the better).

	01-06-2002 19:13									#72
	Got spare money?

I consider the King David bombing as the 3rd option.

Why?

Because the Jewish group called the King David hotel administration, and warned them about the bomb, nearly an hour before it was supposed to go off.

The Brits decided to ignore it, both because they thought it was a bluff, and when it exploded it did bad PR to the Jews.

quote: training (with the brainwashing thrown in for free)

That's the whole difference.

In IDF you get brainwashed to do the right thing, and if you crime, and you are discovered, you will sit in jail.

Did you know that ~20 people are now in Jail following complaints about stealing and razing done in Ramallah, in Defensive Shield?

	01-06-2002 19:17									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: And the translation of the song of the little girl is very unclear, and i didn't any orginal documents... Reality, misinformation or exageration ?

Look, the FOX report clearly said it consulted with Muslim and Arab professionals who confirmed the content of the tape.

quote: Then you'll notice that lot of example of anti-semit teaching are the same. In fact this is far from an anti-jew brain-washing program, as I feared when I read this thread.

I'm not sure what are you saying.

The point is, they aren't just saying "let's resist the occupation"

They are saying : "Hamas & Juhad are cool. They should be every boy and girl's dream."

quote: Whatever, this case is about 2 years old...

Now , imagine that this was a time when Arafat was "comitted to peace".

And it has only gone downhill since.

	01-06-2002 20:45									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Mr. Fun,

According to what I've read about Islam, the religion is against seperation of church and state in the sense that it calls for state-sanctioned moral values on issues such as homosexuality - isn't that a problem to you? You might want to start another thread.

	03-06-2002 05:20									#75
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Monk Mr. Fun, According to what I've read about Islam, the religion is against seperation of church and state in the sense that it calls for state-sanctioned moral values on issues such as homosexuality - isn't that a problem to you? You might want to start another thread.

That sounds a bit like the dilemma faced by the bleeding hearts in Australia when it came to light that rape was widespread in aboriginal communities When misdeeds are committed by one minority group against another, they say that we can't judge others by our moral standards.

So, when does something wrong become morally acceptable?? When it's committed all the time?

	03-06-2002 05:49									#76
	Got spare money?

The Pals aren't training those kids for self defense. They are preparing them for the possibility of being used as a weapon. The Palasitinian leadership uses teenagers as a cheap effective weapon against Israel. They dont mind of course if the person is killed because they have numerous replacements waiting in the camps around the area. The only real weapon factories in the PA are located in the camps. So no, those kids aren't being prepared for self defense, they are being prepared as a bargining chip for Arafat or who ever is the leader of the PA at the time. Their message is simple really. Israel can have its jets and tanks and well trained soldiers, but all we need is to keep sending teenagers to your discos and schools. Becuase we have plenty of them.

	03-06-2002 22:32									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The Pals aren't training those kids for self defense. They are preparing them for the possibility of being used as a weapon. The Palasitinian leadership uses teenagers as a cheap effective weapon against Israel. They dont mind of course if the person is killed because they have numerous replacements waiting in the camps around the area. The only real weapon factories in the PA are located in the camps. So no, those kids aren't being prepared for self defense, they are being prepared as a bargining chip for Arafat or who ever is the leader of the PA at the time. Their message is simple really. Israel can have its jets and tanks and well trained soldiers, but all we need is to keep sending teenagers to your discos and schools. Becuase we have plenty of them.

hi ,

what you write , well that's what it all comes to , ....

the pals have , the ones that make and want war , no regard what so ever to human live , ...........

of course the leader's shall never stand up for a fight , .......no , they chicken away , ..........pfffffffffff , ...........

on top , there is all these so called "pals" from other countries who come here to fight , .........and die , and it aint even their "cause" , ............;

there has been a new arrest on friday , sanaa muhamed hassin shehad , 27 , ......

have a nice day

	05-06-2002 18:42									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In response I think that we should send to them vidoes of people attending these humongous revivals in the US singing "Onward Christain Soldiers". Some of these events attract over ten thousand attendees in a night. I'll bet that broadcasting them from Europe would garner quite a few protests from muslim nations. Ok, there woul be protests from non-muslim Europeans too.

	05-06-2002 19:03									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by panag tell that to the people who are dead and their family , ..............

Please avoid such allready-made answer.

I can answer too :
"Tell that to the majority of Pals kid that they are only brain washed animals ready to make them blow up."

	05-06-2002 19:06									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by panag of course the leader's shall never stand up for a fight , .......no , they chicken away , ..........pfffffffffff , ...........

Non-sens...

I haven't see neither Bush neither Sharon fighting against evil muslim.

And I'm ready give a lot of money to have the luck to see Mr. Chirac box fighting.

	05-06-2002 19:06									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Fun?

	05-06-2002 19:08									#82
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Please avoid such allready-made answer. I can answer too : "Tell that to the majority of Pals kid that they are only brain washed animals ready to make them blow up."

hi ,

like was told before , go for a visit , .........

and as for the rest , imagine that you have a child , you go out drink a cup of coffee and BOOM , your kid is in the hospital , ....with 6 bolts and nuts still in its back , a couple months after the BOOM , ...........try to tell to our receptionist "avoid that aswer" , .............

have a nice day

	05-06-2002 19:09									#83
	Inflate your Upload Space

Pfff... Neved Mind.

	05-06-2002 19:12									#84
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Pfff... Neved Mind.

hi ,

typical , ..........

have a nice day

	05-06-2002 19:15									#85
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Non-sens... I haven't see neither Bush neither Sharon fighting against evil muslim. And I'm ready give a lot of money to have the luck to see Mr. Chirac box fighting.

hi ,

Sharon , everyday in his courtyard , ....

Bush , secret special ops , ...

and who say's that islam is evil , now you dont only hate Jews but also muslim's , ....hmm , dificult with 60% of the palls being muslim , ....ya sure ya dont hate the Druze or the Copt , or the Orhodox Greek's , ........cause they are also in Israel , ....


have a nice day

	05-06-2002 20:45									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Monk Mr. Fun, According to what I've read about Islam, the religion is against seperation of church and state in the sense that it calls for state-sanctioned moral values on issues such as homosexuality - isn't that a problem to you? You might want to start another thread.

Yes, I am aware of the repression that many Muslims commit against homosexuals.

Just as many Christians seek to repress homosexuals.

But when did I state that homosexuals are not repressed by many Muslims??


Even given this, Islam is a religion that has potential for reform in areas such as this -- same with Christianity.

	05-06-2002 20:50									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Today's terract.

This was an M-16 once.

Attachment: 45.jpg
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	05-06-2002 20:51									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

But when did I state that homosexuals are not repressed by many Muslims??

You didn't, but you said there were no serious problems regarding Muslims. That's just not correct. When you take a middle age mentality and try to apply it to the modern, relatively emancipated society, serious problems do indeed occur, for Muslims and the rest of us alike. Start a new thread if you want.

	05-06-2002 20:58									#89
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Monk But when did I state that homosexuals are not repressed by many Muslims?? You didn't, but you said there were no serious problems regarding Muslims. That's just not correct. When you take a middle age mentality and try to apply it to the modern, relatively emancipated society, serious problems do indeed occur, for Muslims and the rest of us alike. Start a new thread if you want.

I don't think I need to start a new thread -- most others here have not taken notice of our discussion, so that thread would drop through, probably.
So given that, this may be my last comment.


But you also have to acknowledge that there are progressive Muslim leaders in the world today, along with conservative Muslim leaders.

Yes, conservative Muslim leaders may outnumber progressive Muslim leaders, but that does not mean that as a religion or culture, Islam is not capable of adapting -- it's just a matter of overcoming anachronistic pratices and beliefs -- such as those against homosexuals.

	05-06-2002 20:59									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Eli Today's terract. This was an M-16 once.

hi ,

16 dead , 8 critical , 30 less critical

at least that was on the last news , GLZ , ...

have a nice day