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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Um, nope. It was marketed by the Australian Union as this. Here it was only ever marketed as a “supreme challenge”. In all the domestic marketing here the Wallabies were afforded total respect. Compare that to the press the Lions received down thereeven before landing perhaps? |
Whatever the tour was called - in promotion terms - it amounted to the same thing. And I don't read the tabloid press, so I have no idea how they handled the Lions before or after they arrived. I can assure you that the broadsheets - well, broadsheet, there's only one in Sydney - were perfectly reasonable. And remained so.
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You know I can never accept that. It was the AUSTRALIAN game plan from the Western Australia game on to cripple the tour party. No Lions tour has ever suffered so much malicious injury. It’s a real black mark against your Union and it serves no purpose to maintain the ARU line that “it was all the Lions” – that’s bull pure and simple. Two teams take to a field every time. And the final point is had the Lions intended to physically destroy your minor sides they would have achieved it I can assure you. They actually set out to play open attractive rugby - albeit with Henry's weird obsession with patterns? 
Funny isn't it how the "violent Lions" clamour only became really prominent after Brisbane?
I know I don’t read the game as well as you, we have adequate proof of that is the threads I can tell who throws a first punch (or knee etc) though and I know who started the majority of aggro on the tour, where I saw every single game. If there were punches outside the grounds however I will accept your judgment that the Lions were at fault. In essence your provincial boys tried to rough it with the cream of International NH forwards during this tour (missing only France) and that was an insane game plan. It has led to persistent bad blood. The Lions may never return (which would be a real shame?). |
Gee, I was much less than precise.  The "aggro" I was referring to was verbal.   In fact, I had to go back and check my post to see what you were actually talking about. Christ, if I get any less precise, call me Stephen Jones and pack me off to Coventry. And I've been there, I know why the expression exists.
The Lions may never return? I find that incredibly difficult to believe.
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I hope and I trust however that our fans behaved impeccably, even under the kind of provocation I received walking out at Sydney (“go home you ******* pussies” – charming stuff). And please keep in mind we have returned to both RSA and NZ after losing tours – so don’t dismiss it as (just) sour grapes. |
It really bothers me that you are condemning so many for the actions of some idiots, drunken or otherwise. Surely you get idiots over there? Well, I have a lot of friends over there and some of them are idiots so I know you have them there.
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I do feel the approach to marketing from your Union is wrong however – I know the double jeopardy it faces in competing with Aussie Rules and League – the latter being proof some of your countrymen are insane just like mine? but Xenophobia is not the way to go – real problems for you down the line if visiting teams refuse to tour? |
I agree the marketing approach is wrong. I thought I made that clear in my post. As I've said before - to Caligastia's chagrin - this country is, in many, many ways, f*cked. OTOH, I don't think anyone is going to refuse to tour.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:19
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quote:
The "aggro" I was referring to was verbal. |
I got it wrong again then
There were some regrettable verbals coming out the BI camp yes. Whatever got the boys riled up to do such silly things is not really relevant I guess – the verbals were unnecessary agitation to a highly competitive tour.
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I had to go back and check my post to see what you were actually talking about. |
If it makes you feel better as I wrote my reply I had to alter it as, on re-reading your post I found myself saying exactly what you were saying yourself most of the time. Does that make sense?
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The Lions may never return? I find that incredibly difficult to believe. |
You are right of course – the moral is for me to engage brain before speaking.
It’s probably just a small number of people venting frustration – that was not based on any official position of theirs just on club based gossip sessions.
The Lions are unusual though in that they have no national Union involved with them. They make their own decisions. England of course would never refuse to tour regardless of circumstance – just look at that shambolic 98 “tour of death” when they arrived without any senior players at all and got whipped – they should have cancelled that rank stupidity.
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that you are condemning so many for the actions of some idiots |
Did it come over as condemning the whole crowd? My apologies if so. I was not wishing to suggest that. I was trying to say there was a significant element, more significant than I am used to anyway, at each game and that I found the atmosphere uncomfortable at times because of it. The majority of Wallaby watching fans are stand up folks – my own experience does confirm that – but I’ve never experienced such a unique atmosphere – highly charged but with underlying aggression not excitement?
I guess the whole verbal war thing affected the crowds too?
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Surely you get idiots over there? Well, I have a lot of friends over there and some of them are idiots so I know you have them there. |
More than our share yes indeed – though we try to keep them at Soccer games. But yes I have seen idiots at twickers and Welford Road and every other ground I have been. I would say I think our crowds police themselves a little better – a nutter spouting venom at opposing fans amongst us would be politely handled at Welford Road, and at Twickers I think the stewards would intervene more at verbal flashpoints than was the case with the Lions last year – but you only ever get to see the small part of the ground you are in really I guess?
Again your point that Rugby is thoroughly established here may well account for that?
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I thought I made that clear in my post |
You did yep, but see my point above about revising my reply – I guess I still missed redundant parts.
And yes no national Union will refuse to tour. The Lions worry me slightly because, with no Union behind them, as soon as things get difficult or touring becomes un-enjoyable where is the incentive to carry on?
It’s rhetorical really – money. The Lions are now a money making machine for both the Lions organisation itself and the destination economy?
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I have no idea why. |
Very few people use an extended vocabulary effectively. Myself whilst on tour is a good case in point.
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I actually suggested to the ARU that the Lions' tickets for the Brisbane Test should be in the front stalls in Perth but they didn't take me seriously. |
Did it lose by one vote then?
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In that very narrow Wallaby loss to the ABs last year in a very high quality game, there was high praise for the ABs. |
It’s good to hear that. But did you time that example deliberately for when you knew Caligastia would miss it? Pure class.
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There's a stubbornness, perversity and contrariness. |
Your words not mine! It’s not for an Englishman to disagree with you.
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In his case, you can add the problem of illiteracy. |
A fatal flaw for a journo. Hints of Xenophobia don’t help either when you write on International matters?
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Are they in against your mob? Are they any good? |
To answer those in turn yes they are, and they should be – but they are strictly average.
There’s some real talent on their books, and they won the title in 98 when John Hall (of Newcastle soccer) was still bank rolling them, but they have fallen away into ‘average’ territory since (I think they won the elimination cup the season before last too). They were sixth in the League in this season just gone. Blades may bring juts the approach they need to achieve more.
What they are most notable for is their Director of Rugby, the former England Fly Half Rob Andrew – he of the Wallaby downing drop goal in RWC 95. Rob is a controversial figure these days, as he suffers from verbal diarrhoea – this season just finished he got banned from Gloucester ground for accusing one of their players (a coloured Frenchman) of being racist!
Last season he accused Tigers of ‘excessively watering the pitch’ to suit us after we put 50 points on them.
He can seriously be quite embarrassing so I wish Blades well!
Oh by the way Ian Bothams son Liam plays for Newcastle - at wing or fullback.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
Cheers for the welcome dudes. Finbar I took your advice and read the entire 15 pages. I must admit I found the discussion most interesting. You all made some quality points about many different aspects of rugby, and I like how you all take the piss out of each other. |
We're basically just a bunch of squabbling children. The challenge for Caligastia and me is to provoke Havak to the point where he hurls his rattle out of his pram.
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I must admit that my rugby knowledge pales in comparison to you blokes |
It's called bluff!
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but I certainly enjoy the game thoroughly and follow it when I can. I've actually fired this page over to a Saffie mate - he has a head full of rugby facts so maybe he'll join us and explain why his boys are playing crap rugby at the moment. |
I actually caught quite a bit of the U-21 World Cup final replayed on Cable TV. The Baby Boks looked very good beating the Baby Wallabies. The BWs definitely had their chances and probably should have won - missing a dead easy drop goal and penalty kick - but there's some real skill amongst the BBs. And rugby, unlike a lot of other sports, tends to see promising youth continue on to success at higher levels. So the future could be bright for our friends across the Ocean.
OTOH, I notice Bobby Skinstaad has been in trouble again, brawling outside a club. Or protecting his brother in a brawl. Or somesuch.
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Caligastia - we must keep Finbar in check. He seems to have a tongue on him longer than a Doc Martin boot. |
You should be aware that your sole Kiwi compatriot, Caligastia, lives, in fact, in New York. I mention that only in passing, for your information. If anyone were to draw any conclusion to the effect that Caligastia saw sense and fled New Zealand - well, don't hold me responsible for other people's common sense.
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Speaking of Docs, Havak you wouldn't happen to own a special drinking pair that you wear to the games? |
Size 17s. For when he can't get his hands on a glass.
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It's just that you sound like the rowdy type being a gnarly bitter drinker and that. |
 Got him in one!
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Grolsh happens to be my poison btw |
I've dislocated too many fingers trying to get the frigging bits of wire off those things. Why should you need a pair of bolt cutters handy before you can enjoy a beer?
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I didn't know that one. Did you know that NZ invented the electric fence? What has Australia invented apart from that hat with the dangling corks? |
There's probably a line about sheep farmers with too much time on their hands being the only people on earth likely to come up with the notion of plugging a fence into a power point ... but I'll pass up the chance for a cheap shot.
What have we invented? As one of my Oz compatriots posted in another thread recently, we invented the wine cask. Which just about sums up this anti-intellectual, phillistine rathole of a place under our current government. You should be aware, Andydog, that Caligastia, token moderator of this thread because he's the only mature one amongst us, has banned politics from this thread. Well, he's away for a week celebrating July 4th, so bugger him. Unless, of course, he has internet connection - in which case, Caligastia, sorry, the political reference just slipped out.
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I predict that the ABs will win the first tri nations test against the Wallabies in a close intensely physical game by 5 points, and am prepared to bet Civ gold on it! |
That's the spirit! Okay, we need to get some order into this betting competition. Should we make it straight out betting or introduce a points spread? Straight out is much easier to administer, but points spread can add some spice. For the TriNations and Bledisloe Cup we would need an independent points estimator and Havak fits the bill.
You interested in trying to gauge a points spread for the Wallabies -v- ABs, Havak? Or aren't you familiar enough with the teams?
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:19
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but who are "The Lions"? |
Well any inaccuracies here are my own fault – but in essence the British Lions are a limited company in this Professional era (British Lions ltd). They are run like a business with players from all four home Unions being individually contracted to the Lions tour on a strict fixed term basis (sub-contracted away from their Union and clubs if you like).
Between tours they do very, very little that I am aware of. I believe the Barbarians are now very similar – a limited company with an executive board that, like the Lions, is called a committee as homage to the amateur days?
The Lions hold a special place in fans hearts up here, as it’s the only example of the home nations coming together as one cause. Did you know they never play at home (because the venue would necessarily be partisan amongst the home nations)? I don’t think they play France either, at least not in recent history, and that is perhaps something we should correct? The unique composition is also why emotions ran so high when they got embroiled in a contentious tour last year – Lions tours are meant to be fun and to promote the game first and foremost.
I would also really like to see them stick with British and Irish coaches in future – no offence to SH coaches, most of whom I’m sure are much better than Henry proved to be, but it’s the B&I Lions right? I think the players need a B&I connection to the coaches?
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Cleveland's in the backwoods, isn't it? |
Fingers crossed it is anyway.
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Pity his right foot hadn't suffered the same urges all those years ago. |
That kick made him. I’m sure it led to him getting the Newcastle job in fact. A great player in his time he is now almost universally reviled outside of his own club for his lack of diplomatic grace.
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I imagine the on field team's IQ average doubles as soon as he goes off for a break. |
I think Liam has some smarts – he gave cricket up when he realised rugger payed more. He is not a bad player but he isn’t quite International class. You can never say never though? On the flip side his old man watches him at home games so I guess you can join me in disliking Newcastle now?
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The challenge for Caligastia and me is to provoke Havak to the point where he hurls his rattle out of his pram. |
It’s not much of a challenge for them. My rattle flies about freely.
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Size 17s. For when he can't get his hands on a glass. |
Very useful for getting near the bar at Welford Road.
In actual fact I’m a really nice bloke Andydog – honest. Just the odd anger management problem related to my low tolerance for idiots – particularly when they get near rugger grounds
By the way Finbar I am referring mainly to Welford Road not certain tours, where a soccer element is creeping in as the nearby soccer club plummet down the Leagues – I hate success groupies, I was at Welford road during the “dark years” (when we used to finish as low as fourth)
Heh I object, I could never drink ‘gnarly’ bitter
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Why should you need a pair of bolt cutters handy before you can enjoy a beer? |
It’s good beer and worth the effort. It’s too expensive in bottled form here now for many places to hold it – you can easily pay the equivalent of $10 Aus for it.
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we invented the wine cask |
Is this true? Do the French know?
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You interested in trying to gauge a points spread for the Wallabies -v- ABs, Havak? Or aren't you familiar enough with the teams? |
It’s awkward for me as I’m much more familiar with the Wallaby squad – I simply see more of you. I know the AB backs reasonably but their forwards are an unknown quantity for me, and without that knowledge my spread estimate is pretty useless? I could make a statistical estimate based on your last ten games and factored against the official world rankings – or is that over egging the pudding?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
Sadly this has been a task beyond the ken of all who have made the attempt - to date. Should you succeed your username will go down in history. |
Turn it up, ravagon, Havak reckons he's got my number. Little does he know I'm lulling into another false sense of security - by which I mean, the one after England beat Wales.
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He wasn't entirely correct about the bungee being invented in NZ, as the Hacketts nicked the concept from a tribe in NZ Samoa IIRC, but thats been about it. Very slim pickings. |
One 3rd World country thieving from another? 
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Pitifully, I can contibute little as the rugby coverage in WA is mediocre at best. The only bright spot being that the ARL coverage isn't too good either. |
Rugby seems to have gone ahead in leaps and bounds over there. They were even talking about inserting the new S12 team there. Anyway, regardless of the rugby coverage over there, I need you on my side in this thread. Caligastia's now got another Kiwi; Havak's got his two French chums - cross-Channel rivalries being set aside when it comes to taking on the Southern Hemisphere - and I'm on my lonesome. So stick around!
One tip, though. If a post of Havak's doesn't mention either English skipper Jonno or Havak's beloved club, Leicester Tigers, it's only because he's forgotten. Please remind him of his forgetfulness.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I’m going to frame this – overtly agreeing without any counter debate – it’s almost unprecedented. |
Well, I'm a traditionalist in many ways. It seems ridiculous for a unit like the Lions - set up for the purposes it is - to use an outside coach. Of course it depends how purist you want to be. In this regard, I am.
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I’m not ducking this one but I honestly don’t know the guy, so I can’t confirm or deny that. |
Not knowing anyone has never stopped me slagging them off. Nor should you feel constrained. All part of your education process.
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Almost – I love food but hate cooking. ;-) |
Heretic. It's the great, great interest in my life.
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The result is the Wallabies should get a six point start, this despite the fact you have had the upper hand in the last two Tri-nations. Does that sound reasonable? Okay the brain is now on Friday afternoon overload but does this mean that yourself and Caligastia (and all others welcome) bet on the point difference once this spread is taken into account? |
Frankly, I think six points is a pretty reasonable figure taking into account recent events. I mean, internationally; leaving aside the S12. The Wallabies have played tougher opponents than the ABs and have won by less. I don't have a problem with six points.
It means that if you back the Wallabies, they have to win by 6 or more. If you back the ABs, they can lose by 6 or fewer.
I think I'll commit for 20 Civ Gold on the Wallabies to win by 6 or more.
PS. Tamerlin went on two weeks holiday on the coast down around Carcasonne, from memory. Lucky vache. Should be back this Sunday or Monday, I think.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
Ah yes I always knew this would come up fairly early on. |
I thought I'd keep it nice and simple for you to begin with. Let me know if I'm typing too quickly for you.
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Havak we all know that there doesn’t exist a bitter that isn’t gnarly. Bitter beers are the pits. They are cloudy and can’t seem to chill down. And there is often so much sediment left over in your glass you could snort it. I should know - it was my unfortunate challenge to drink nothing but the local bitters on tour when we all followed the ABs around the UK during the last world cup.  |
Yeah, come on, Havak, justify yourself - and your lousy cloudy bitter - to my very best friend Andydog!
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Anyway, I’ll make what can only be described as a ‘sure fire no worries easy peasy piss in the hand’ type bet and put 20 gold on the ABs. Finbar you mentioned you’re into food. Well I’m looking forward to watching the ABs mash up the Auzzies into wallaby stew in the cooking pot that is Jade Stadium. Now there’s a tasty dish. |
Sorry, Ad, I neither cook nor eat anything but Italian.
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Btw, what way do you think Lote Tuqiri will go? If he does go union, I’ll be watching him. It seems the consensus in Australia is that he’s the most talented thing since sliced bread. (to go with my wallaby stew) |
No one seems to know which way he'll jump. Brisbane have offered him a massive one-season deal, the ARU have offered him a lot - but quite a bit less than Brisbane - for (I think) three seasons. The ARU have extended his decision-making deadline. Apparently the Brumbies are very keen to get him, they're dangling the bait of linking up with Gregan, Larkham, et al. I have a feeling he'll come across. The bottom line for the RL people is that their game doesn't feature on the world stage. Only with Union can they represent their country in a meaningful way.
Last edited by finbar on 06-07-2002 at 14:29
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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Hi, back from holiday. I didn't see France-Australia but know the result. Oh well...
One note for the Lions:
They did play France. Once. I think it was in 1989, as it was part of some larger celebration. They won, by the way.
I'd be interested in statistics about the proportion of English players vs. Welsh/Irish/Scots in the Lions over the time. Has any team ever had less English players than from one of the celt nations?
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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quote:
I'd be interested in statistics about the proportion of English players vs. Welsh/Irish/Scots in the Lions over the time. Has any team ever had less English players than from one of the celt nations? |
Hello LDiCesare, nice to meet you.  The last three lions tours were like this:
In Australia in 2001 the Lions consisted of 16 English, 6 Irish, 10 Welsh and 3 Scots.
In South Africa in 1997 the Lions consisted of 21 English, 4 Irish, 8 Welsh and 6 Scots.
In NZ in 1993 the Lions consisted of 17 English, 4 Irish, 5 Welsh and 8 Scots.
So the proportions did move about a bit in the Celt sides, but always around half the players were English.
That's as far back as I looked, so it could still be possible that the English were outnumbered by another country at some stage before '93.
I saw some the SA Samoa game. SA looked good on attack - 60 pts is a good total. They are still giving away too many points however - 20 odd against Samoa, 30 odd against Argentina - their defence still needs a lot of work.
I see Havak has been a bit quiet lately. Too many of those accursed bitters not doubt.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
One thing I did catch was O’Neil re-opening the 4th Super 12 team push – he reckons Aus needs it to stop young players flocking away to rich English and French clubs - in fact the way he put it made us and the French sound like kidnappers – it gives another level of Aussie talent a chance to get top level experience.
Now I have no position on Aus having a fourth team, but I would point out that these young players will have a better experience playing top flight rugby for big clubs in France and England than taking part in an Australian “whipping boys” team that will compete with the South African sides to hold the Super 12 table up? |
Yes, they will get experience, but I think the worry is getting them back. Joe Roff came back because he only ever planned a short break. He always saw his future here. With the money on offer up there, the younger players may be a different story. There's also, of course, the preference to watch them develop. It's hard to keep track of player performance that far away. Finally, of course, there's the different rugby styles. Do we want our Young Turks maturing in the NH style?
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Its an interesting point though – will NZ ever support a fourth Aussie Super 12 side after being summarily kicked out of the RWC by the ARU? |
NZ had agreed to support the extra S12 team but reneged. And that was before the RWC debacle. Which was of their own silly making. We keep hearing snippets from NZ about various reports compiled on the NZ effort in losing the WRC - heads rolling, et al. Some of the rumours are extraordinary. I just wish they'd make the reports public and get it over and done with. I suspect we'll end up with the fourth S12 team. Some sort of compromise - arm-twisting, palm-greasing, whatever - will happen.
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Havak pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it between Finbar and Caligastia/Andydog and retires to a safe distance – the UK |
Just wait till you see what sort of wedges we've lined up to drive between you, Tamerlin and LDiCesares.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
More specifically he wanted his Wallaby shirt back for the world cup? I think after that tournament he may well follow the cash again? |
Interesting theory actually. I wonder. He didn't have a great time over there. We'll see.
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Damn – you have rumbled our subtle plan to eliminate the difference between NH and SH playing style. Make the world England. |
I found an old atlas the other day that you'd love. It was from the days when the Commonwealth countries were coloured pink and pink dominated the world.
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And to be fair again, with the current standard of Bok teams in the competition, it is hard to justify refusing Australia another team. A possible super 14 keeps being mentioned in the snippets I see on the web – who else is after another team? |
The S14 has only been vaguely mentioned as far as I know. I don't know who would lay claim to the 14th team. The Boks certainly have at least one too many teams, arguably two. The Kiwis certainly couldn't support another one.
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You always pick the easy challenges – it won’t be hard to get an Anglo-French angle going. |
Oh, it's not hard. That, in itself, was the challenge - to find something, um, unexpected.
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I know it’s not rugby but consider this for a self-defeating English approach – in the last year Wimbledons show courts have been relayed with a clay base that has slowed them down an estimated 30% and in so doing altered them so they don’t suit our two top players. Only in England… |
You mean your top player - who just isn't big, strong or mean enough, it seems to me - and that Canadian chappie?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
You should be aware that your sole Kiwi compatriot, Caligastia, lives, in fact, in New York. I mention that only in passing, for your information. If anyone were to draw any conclusion to the effect that Caligastia saw sense and fled New Zealand - well, don't hold me responsible for other people's common sense. |
I am feeling more like a New Yorker every day...
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What have we invented? As one of my Oz compatriots posted in another thread recently, we invented the wine cask. Which just about sums up this anti-intellectual, phillistine rathole of a place under our current government. You should be aware, Andydog, that Caligastia, token moderator of this thread because he's the only mature one amongst us, has banned politics from this thread. Well, he's away for a week celebrating July 4th, so bugger him. Unless, of course, he has internet connection - in which case, Caligastia, sorry, the political reference just slipped out. |
 I see nothing political...
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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Bitter is meant to be cloudy (aka have body) and be served at room temp – which is fine here anytime but high summer. |
He’s Englishman alright! Warm cloudy beers indeed. It’s Mrs Havak I feel sorry for - I found that bitter, once drunken, seems to carry on brewing in your stomach. That bitter gave me some of the most shocking and offensive farts that I have ever produced – and it caused me no end of trouble I tell you. I refer to it as my “bitter experience of ’99”, and I will never forget it. Havak, you are obviously guilty of drinking it for years, I can’t begin to imagine how rotten your arse has become.
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Its an interesting point though – will NZ ever support a fourth Aussie Super 12 side after being summarily kicked out of the RWC by the ARU? |
I still haven’t been able to work out how this tiff started or what the real facts are. Some say the NZRFU initially agreed on the extra team, then reneged. Some say that ARU is getting too big for their britches – insisting that the Kiwis play more games just because John O’Neil can’t be arsed organising a strong domestic competition.
NZ has said “no thanks, we already have plenty of games with a full Super 12 season, a full NPC season, and 5 Home Tests”. The Australian knee-jerk reaction of “you are killing the game of rugby” and kicking us out of the RWC has done themselves no favours, only complicated the situation.
I personally think that Australian rugby is where it is today because of the NZRFU (and of course the SARFU). Just remember who it was that gave you a helping hand. Now it’s time to pull your finger out and start helping yourself – give your up & coming talent the opportunity they need via a domestic competition. An extra team in the Super 12 will not be as effective.
Sure, it won’t make you quite as much money, but that is the real issue isn’t it!
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Andydog gets a yellow card  |
So early on? Story of my life...
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04-07-2002 14:10
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