29-06-2002 06:37									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin even some Civilization Gold would have been cool

Great idea! That solves our international currency problem, Caligastia. We bet in Civ Gold. What could be more apposite?

quote: but unfortunately I'am on holydays for two weeks and I'am leaving for a place where I won't have any link to Internet (I know, it's awful, terrible...).

But hopefully you'll be able to watch the Test. Fear not, though, in your absence here, I will be very fair to France.

quote: Havak : all my money on France saturday... I trust you !

Steady on Tamerlin, I think Havak works for WorldCom. Or Xerox.

	29-06-2002 10:16									#302
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Okay, I'll be the first to post the good*/bad*/who gives a sh*t?* news!

(* = choose your attitude according to where you live. Anyone in Leicestershire should automatically choose "good"! )

In the U-21 World Cup final, SA defeated Australia 24-21. Australia came back in the second half and narrowly missed a penalty and field goal attempt to lose the game.

I'm waiting for the England -v- Argentina result for 123rd and 124th places.

	29-06-2002 13:56									#303
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NZ 68
d
Fiji 18

Solid AB performance against dodgy oppo who were minus one player for the last 15 minutes and two players for the last 5 minutes. The Fijians just can't cut it against quality structured play. Great 7s players, but. The ABs got their combinations working well but the game could be costly for them. Umaga went off in the first half with a knee problem and Leon MacDonald was carried off after a terrible (accidental) head clash. Jonah Lomu was heavily involved in the game. I have to say, I think he's as strong as ever, but he has lost his high speed.

BTW, if you'd backed Fiji on the NZ TAB, you'd have collected. The Fijians were given 61 points in.

Well, the entree's out of the way - now for the main course! Australia -v- France is about to kick off!

	29-06-2002 16:24									#304
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Wallabies 31
d
France 25

Great match. They played each other to a standstill. The French ballhandling was so much better than last week. The Australian forwards held their own, but their backs - Mortlock, Herbert, Latham, etc - were outstanding. In fact, they're so big and strong that they're operating as almost de facto forwards. With the Wallabies' 4 rookies - replacement hooker Sam Hardman, who played most of the second half, has barely played a S12 match - and the youth in the French team, all augers well for the future for both teams.

Even ref Honiss had a better game than usual, communicating well with the players and letting things flow. OTOH, his sending off of Owen Finnegan was ridiculous. Obviously the angle from which the ref saw things was different to the replay angles. Finnegan was approaching at speed to tackle, the French player changed direction, and the collision happened earlier than it otherwise would have.

Equally, I suspect the ref stiffed the French in the lead up to one of the early Wallaby tries. Australia knocked on, the ref played advantage to the French, who proceeded to knock on, Australia gathered the ball and scored the try. Unless the ref had called the French advantage over - and if he had, it would have been a very very short advantage in a game where healthy advantages were played - he should have called the ball back for the French to take the penalty.

Still, I'm happy with the Wallaby progress. There were even more signs of variations in approach to the game, which is heartening; and their sheer professionalism under pressure was excellent to see. And I suspect Tamerlin and LDiCesare wouldn't be unhappy with their team's effort either.

	30-06-2002 05:24									#305
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And just to round off the weekend:

Boks 49
d
Pumas 29

Which seems to indicate the Pumas don't travel well.

Oh, and England -d- Argentina for 123rd place in the U-21 World Cup.

	30-06-2002 07:42									#306
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Wallabies 31 d France 25 Great match.

I agree, but very frustrating as it was a match the french players shouldn't have lost.

quote: Originally posted by finbar Even ref Honiss had a better game than usual, communicating well with the players and letting things flow.

I'am sorry Finbar, but I really have some trouble to imagine he can be worse than what I have seen today. It must be something really terrible...
He doesn't deserve that I speak about him.

quote: Originally posted by finbar Equally, I suspect the ref stiffed the French in the lead up to one of the early Wallaby tries. Australia knocked on, the ref played advantage to the French, who proceeded to knock on, Australia gathered the ball and scored the try. Unless the ref had called the French advantage over - and if he had, it would have been a very very short advantage in a game where healthy advantages were played - he should have called the ball back for the French to take the penalty.

You are right, as for Owen Finnegan.

quote: Originally posted by finbar Still, I'm happy with the Wallaby progress. There were even more signs of variations in approach to the game, which is heartening; and their sheer professionalism under pressure was excellent to see. And I suspect Tamerlin and LDiCesare wouldn't be unhappy with their team's effort either.

The Australians have scored at least two tries after a french player (Nicolas Brusque and Frédéric Michalack...)kicked the ball and didn't managed to send the ball out of the field. The French players have given the Aussies the club to hit them on the neck. I have to admit each time the french handed them the club they hit them strong.

The French team has lost this game more than the Wallabies has won it...

"Enfin, c'est comme ça !"

This is my last post for two weeks, have fun betting some Civ Gold.

	30-06-2002 08:16									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I'am sorry Finbar, but I really have some trouble to imagine he can be worse than what I have seen today. It must be something really terrible... He doesn't deserve that I speak about him.

Oh well, NH -v- SH interpretations again. Never the 'twain shall meet.

quote: The Australians have scored at least two tries after a french player (Nicolas Brusque and Frédéric Michalack...)kicked the ball and didn't managed to send the ball out of the field. The French players have given the Aussies the club to hit them on the neck. I have to admit each time the french handed them the club they hit them strong. The French team has lost this game more than the Wallabies has won it...

Sorry, Tamerlin, I think you're underestimating the Wallaby effort. The French hit the front - while Finnegan was off the ground - but had no answer to the running of Herbert and Mortlock and the coordination around them. The last couple of minutes saw exhaustion take over for both sides. Still, the important thing was that it was a quality match.

quote: "Enfin, c'est comme ça !"

True.

quote: This is my last post for two weeks, have fun betting some Civ Gold.

I'm betting the French will go a long, long way in the World Cup. They're a very exciting team. That replacement winger - who played for French A during the week - is like greased lightning.

	30-06-2002 08:49									#308
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I'am not underestimating the Wallabies Finbar, but the French team would have deserved a better result.

And this match would have deserved a real referee. And with a real one the story might have been very different...

But it was a good game indeed !

And right, we will hear again about Cédric Heymans (as he is playing for the Stade Toulousain, I will hear from him very soon in the french championship).

	30-06-2002 09:07									#309
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Okay! Have fun for two weeks. If you're having a holiday, that is. If you're not having a holiday ... have fun anyway!

	01-07-2002 02:17									#310
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Yes Finbar, I'am going on holidays for two weeks, I'am leaving tomorrow afternoon for the French Mediterranean coast with my six and a half year son.

No Internet connexion, no access to cable or satellite TV so no rugby match for two weeks...

My only contact with the Rugby community will be through the "Midi Olympique", our weekly rugby newspaper.

I've managed to borrow a laptop computer, I will thus be able to play modded CtP2 and other turn based strategy games when my kid is asleep.

Have fun !

	01-07-2002 04:30									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Yes Finbar, I'am going on holidays for two weeks, I'am leaving tomorrow afternoon for the French Mediterranean coast with my six and a half year son.

Lucky bugger! A couple of years ago I took a couple of weeks to wander around the coast (west from Marseilles) and down into Spain. I particularly remember Sete. (My keyboard doesn't type graves!) I'd love to do the trip again sometime.

quote: No Internet connexion, no access to cable or satellite TV so no rugby match for two weeks...

You need a portable satellite.

I notice that Biaritz has signed NSW winger/centre Mark Stcherbina to replace Joe Roff. He's a very good player - quick, and very, very strong. He would always be a first-choice NSW player, but he realised he had a lot of competition for a Wallaby spot.

Anyway, have a great time!

	01-07-2002 06:25									#312
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Lucky bugger! A couple of years ago I took a couple of weeks to wander around the coast (west from Marseilles) and down into Spain. I particularly remember Sète. I'd love to do the trip again sometime.

If you have been down into spain you have perhaps visited Perpignan (a town hosting one of the top 16 rugby team) and Collioure (not famous for its rugby team but for its old historical village) where I'am going, just 30 km away from the spanish border.

quote: I notice that Biaritz has signed NSW winger/centre Mark Stcherbina to replace Joe Roff. He's a very good player - quick, and very, very strong. He would always be a first-choice NSW player, but he realised he had a lot of competition for a Wallaby spot.

I have read Biarritz has signed an Australian player but I haven't got the time to read the full article, I will have a closer look at this new during my holidays.

quote: Anyway, have a great time!

Thanks Finbar !

It's time to go to bed, see you in two weeks !

	01-07-2002 06:56									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin If you have been down into spain you have perhaps visited Perpignan (a town hosting one of the top 16 rugby team) and Collioure (not famous for its rugby team but for its old historical village) where I'am going, just 30 km away from the spanish border.

Yep! Been to both!

	01-07-2002 13:37									#314
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quote: Live fast, die poor, Havak!

I’ve got the second part down anyway.

quote: He regrets it.

He should. It was one of the worst pieces of unprovoked violence I have ever seen by a Professional player – he was lucky it remained within the game and was not taken further under criminal law.

quote: And I suspect Duncan will happily go anywhere and take whatever's coming right on the chin. As it were.

Quite literally possibly - he has a bit of history with some of the England team – so in a way I’d like to see him take the field (also because I still think Larkham is a class or ten above him despite how well he has come on since going home)

quote: where Havak stands on Britain and Europe

I’m a big fan of both.

What do you mean that isn’t what you meant?

quote: Havak what do you think?

I think I ought to start checking this thread from home at the weekend.

quote: Anyone in Leicestershire should automatically choose "good"!

I have a few problems with your media and the attitude of some players and Union officials but I’m not anti-Aussie in the way you think.

quote: Even ref Honiss had a better game than usual

He must have had a storming first 60 mins as in the last 20 (all I caught – massive hangover) he was dire. I think we need to stop using that tame euphemism of ‘interpretation’ and be more honest about it – NH refs apply more of the laws of the game and that doesn’t suit SH play – and vice versa of course. I’m not as angry with Honiss as Tamerlin got as I recognise the Wallabies played superbly – but as ever they also played the ref well – tell me I’m wrong Finbar?

As I saw so little of the game I cannot really comment on it a whole. I do agree that French winger is a real talent – I’d like to see more of him.

Finny got red carded? I think perhaps you get to a stage where the ref judges the man not the offence? In other words his history of red mist play means he didn’t get the benefit of the doubt Saturday perhaps? Just a thought. He perhaps needs to take a long look at himself and smarten up – if he cuts the odd bit of silliness he is a terrific player as you affirm Finbar.

quote: Still, I'm happy with the Wallaby progress.

There is a massive test waiting for them after the tri-nations of course. Or a big test for us, I’m not sure which is more accurate.

I feel for France though – from the bit I saw they played with real heart. Given that in the next six nations their only big match is at Twickers their build up for RWC is a tough one now.

And heh – result, 123rd place for the English lads is something to build on?

quote: I'm betting the French will go a long, long way in the World Cup

Actually, despite being in Australia, RWC 03 is perhaps the widest open ever? Personally I expect an England-France final. Well okay maybe not expect – but hope springs eternal?

	01-07-2002 13:55									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Quite literally possibly - he has a bit of history with some of the England team – so in a way I’d like to see him take the field (also because I still think Larkham is a class or ten above him despite how well he has come on since going home)

I wouldn't argue that he's in Larkham's class. No one would. But he has become very good at what he does.

quote: He must have had a storming first 60 mins as in the last 20 (all I caught – massive hangover) he was dire. I think we need to stop using that tame euphemism of ‘interpretation’ and be more honest about it – NH refs apply more of the laws of the game and that doesn’t suit SH play – and vice versa of course. I’m not as angry with Honiss as Tamerlin got as I recognise the Wallabies played superbly – but as ever they also played the ref well – tell me I’m wrong Finbar?

"Interpretation" is a suitable word, I think. What was your problem with the ref? Can you give me some specifics? I don't know whether it's a case of "playing the ref" - they play the way SH teams play, and the way SH refs referee. I don't know what else they can do.

quote: Finny got red carded? I think perhaps you get to a stage where the ref judges the man not the offence? In other words his history of red mist play means he didn’t get the benefit of the doubt Saturday perhaps? Just a thought. He perhaps needs to take a long look at himself and smarten up – if he cuts the odd bit of silliness he is a terrific player as you affirm Finbar.

It might have been reputation that saw him carded. I think it might also have been the fact that the ref was - from memory - behind the incident. He didn't see the immediate lead-up to what happened. It even looked uglier than it was to the naked eye. In fact, Finnegan had a top game doing a lot of hard work.

quote: There is a massive test waiting for them after the tri-nations of course. Or a big test for us, I’m not sure which is more accurate.

Both.

quote: I feel for France though – from the bit I saw they played with real heart. Given that in the next six nations their only big match is at Twickers their build up for RWC is a tough one now.

They played their hearts out. I just thought the Wallaby structure and discipline defeated them. Give them a sniff, though, and they will slice you to pieces. These two Tests were my first close look at them since the last WC. They've certainly improved. A hell of a lot!

quote: Actually, despite being in Australia, RWC 03 is perhaps the widest open ever? Personally I expect an England-France final. Well okay maybe not expect – but hope springs eternal?

I would be appalled if you thought - or hoped - otherwise!

	01-07-2002 15:07									#316
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quote: "Interpretation" is a suitable word, I think

I think there are better words in relation to the laws to be honest - "ignore" for SH refs and "slavishly apply" for some NH refs?

Again we need an amalgam of sorts, and may eventually get it - but both sides need to give ground for that to happen - in other words I would be dead against the SH imposing their "interpretation" on the whole game and just as much against the reverse case of the NH imposing theirs.

I guess that last bit might surprise you but refs like MCHugh who will reset scrums when the side that did not infringe had already won good possession get on my nerves just as much as any ref can.

quote: In fact, Finnegan had a top game doing a lot of hard work.

I will concede he is a handy blindside. I'll still take Richard Hill though thanks (and he does not play for Tigers).

quote: Both.

True enough.

I just hope we can keep building some momentum up to RWC. And I am glad we face France at home in the new year.

France really have come on under Laporte. He had a really rough ride at first, but sticking with him has sure paid off. He has totally re-orgnasied their coaching system in the same way Woodward did for us.

quote: I would be appalled if you thought - or hoped - otherwise!

Well it's my dearest wish that England's first win over Australia in Aus be in RWC 03 in Stadium Australia, whilst I'm sat in the middle of the official banana coloured supporters mercilessly taking the mickey. I don't dream small dreams.

	01-07-2002 15:40									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think there are better words in relation to the laws to be honest - "ignore" for SH refs and "slavishly apply" for some NH refs?

I'm still waiting for examples of the ref's appalling performance on Saturday night.

quote: Well it's my dearest wish that England's first win over Australia in Aus be in RWC 03 in Stadium Australia, whilst I'm sat in the middle of the official banana coloured supporters mercilessly taking the mickey. I don't dream small dreams.

No at all. Nor should you expect to make it out of the ground alive.

	01-07-2002 15:52									#318
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Hmm specifically I felt that he failed to pick the Aussies up for coming in from the side at rucks a lot of the time? Mind you it is a fairly safe bet SH refs will do that?

It is perhaps unfair of me to judge him (and the Wallabies) on less than 20 mins though.

quote: Nor should you expect to make it out of the ground alive.

They do get rather worked up don't they?

	01-07-2002 16:41									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Hmm specifically I felt that he failed to pick the Aussies up for coming in from the side at rucks a lot of the time? Mind you it is a fairly safe bet SH refs will do that?

That's something the SH refs are always penalising. It was penalised on Saturday night.

	01-07-2002 17:06									#320
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Great idea! That solves our international currency problem, Caligastia. We bet in Civ Gold. What could be more apposite?

How do we bet in civ gold?

	01-07-2002 17:23									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think there are better words in relation to the laws to be honest - "ignore" for SH refs and "slavishly apply" for some NH refs?

So SH refs "ignore" but only some NH refs "slavishly apply"? What an unbiased statement!

	01-07-2002 17:40									#322
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Once again I get lucky with my predictions. I predicted France v Australia would be close but with Oz winning and that SA would beat Argentina by at least 15 points. When do we start the betting?

I was pretty happy with the NZ effort against Fiji. Things seem to be coming together well for us. I am eagerly anticipating the Tri-nations.

Great performance from Australia and France. I think France's penalty and conversion kicking let them down. Also I reckon France too often opted to kick the penalty through the posts instead of going for the lineout. This happened several times after periods of great attacking play from the French. When youre well over 10 points down, kicking it through the posts is the wrong option IMO.


SA v Argentina was an interesting game. Argentina made a great start with some very exciting attacking play in the first 10 minutes, but unfortunately they didnt get any points for their trouble. The Boks then broke their defensive line a couple of times and the Argies found themselves 17 nil down. In the end it was their defensive play that let them down. A highlight of the game was a 60 metre penalty kick from Quesada. SA gave away far too many penalties.

I will be away in Cleveland visiting the in-laws for the 4th of July holiday until next week, so dont let the thread fall too far guys!

	01-07-2002 18:35									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia How do we bet in civ gold?

We just call it gold. Not dollars or Euros. 10 gold, 15 gold, whatever. Apposite, I thought.

Except with Havak's completely biased attitude to SH refs, he'll probably declare all bets off if he thinks he spots a SH ref "ignoring" some ridiculously obscure rule.

	01-07-2002 18:41									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia When do we start the betting?

The Tri-Nations? I think Tamerlin will be just about back. I'm not sure where LDiCesares has got to.

quote: I was pretty happy with the NZ effort against Fiji. Things seem to be coming together well for us. I am eagerly anticipating the Tri-nations.

Yeah, they combined a lot better. But the oppo was less than outstanding, that's the problem. I never know how to gauge a performance against that sort of oppo. And you could have some injury problems with Umaga and MacDonald.

quote: Great performance from Australia and France. I think France's penalty and conversion kicking let them down. Also I reckon France too often opted to kick the penalty through the posts instead of going for the lineout. This happened several times after periods of great attacking play from the French. When youre well over 10 points down, kicking it through the posts is the wrong option IMO.

I agree. Press home the advantage.

quote: I will be away in Cleveland visiting the in-laws for the 4th of July holiday until next week, so dont let the thread fall too far guys!

I suspect Havak and I will have no problem clogging up the ether with our usual twaddle.

	01-07-2002 19:11									#325
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quote: Originally posted by finbar We just call it gold. Not dollars or Euros. 10 gold, 15 gold, whatever. Apposite, I thought.

Sounds good! What should we all start off with? 100 gold?

quote: Except with Havak's completely biased attitude to SH refs, he'll probably declare all bets off if he thinks he spots a SH ref "ignoring" some ridiculously obscure rule.

	01-07-2002 19:14									#326
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Yeah, they combined a lot better. But the oppo was less than outstanding, that's the problem. I never know how to gauge a performance against that sort of oppo. And you could have some injury problems with Umaga and MacDonald.

Yes, it certainly was a costly game. I think we have enough talent to go around though.

The All Blacks seem to be a team that plays to its opposition, so I expect them to lift their standards for the Tri-nations.

	01-07-2002 20:19									#327
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quote: It was penalised on Saturday night

Consistently? Or sometimes? I saw him let it go several times, but then I was rather hungover at the time.

quote: What an unbiased statement!

Um, but all I did was miss the 'some' out for SH refs. What a difference a single word can make! It should of course have been present for SH refs too

quote: if he thinks he spots a SH ref "ignoring" some ridiculously obscure rule.

Damn right if that obscure law is called offside in any part of it.

Am I totally against SH refs - no. But once again my silkly posting skills turned a post that was supposed to say "you aint perfect for refs, neither are we" into "I hate SH refs".

But you have seen adequate proof in the various threads that the SH/NH divide on what is and isn't important for refs to police is a big one?

Can you think of a solution other than compromise both ways?

	01-07-2002 20:31									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Um, but all I did was miss the 'some' out for SH refs. What a difference a single word can make! It should of course have been present for SH refs too

Freudian slip?

	02-07-2002 04:35									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Sounds good! What should we all start off with? 100 gold?

Well, if we're playing with Civ Gold we should probably stay true to the Civ theme and choose a difficulty level. Now let's see ... Chieftain gives you a starting kitty of 50 gold; Warlord and above gives you ... mmmm ... no gold ...

Okay, so we don't stay true to the Civ theme! Stupid game - why can't it be more adaptable to betting on rugby?

Look, I think we should vote on how much we start with. We could use the WorldCom model and vote ourselves 135 trillion gold each on the basis that it's not our gold anyway. Or we could use the Mother Theresa model and vote ourselves 0 gold each on the basis that poverty - somehow - makes you a better person.

Or we could simply start with 100 gold as you suggest, Caligastia.

	02-07-2002 04:39									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The All Blacks seem to be a team that plays to its opposition

I wonder if Havak has considered that as the reason why England loses to 3rd World Countries.