11-06-2002 04:25									#61
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Interesting news this morning. Christian Cullen has been dropped from the AB squad against the Irish.

Oh, and Queensland have sacked coach Mark McBain. Which only confirms the rumors that have been floating around for the last two seasons. It was said that he didn't have the confidence of senior players. It was said he was tactically inept. Still, he took them to the finals last season and as near as damn this season. Who'd be a coach?

Last edited by finbar on 11-06-2002 at 04:38

	11-06-2002 04:28									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Also Caleb Ralph will no doubt be more conscious of over-running when supporting other players. A couple of tries were butchered because of that.

He still scored one even after over-running. Reached behind him, IIRC.

	11-06-2002 04:30									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yes, I sw that bit. The commentators were blaming it on "latin blood", saying that when he saw Gibson's face right by his foot it was "instinct" to kick it. Mazzariol seemed almost as suprised as Gibson. After kicking him in the face he was apologising profusely with a look of regret on his face. "thats how they play over there, they cant help it" quips the commentator.

The action and immediate reaction were bizarre, weren't they? Strangest (and most amusing) thing I've seen in rugby in years.

	11-06-2002 14:03									#64
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I think I've seen a match for it from the Italians actually.

In their first season in the six nations playing Ireland the Irish scrum half Peter Stringer turns round to check the position of his opposite number before putting the ball into the scrum only to meet the guys fist - *lights out*.

The referee is right behind both of them and the Italian is red carded whilst protesting his innocence all the way to the touchline.

They can be an entertaining team to watch all right.

What is the comparative strength of that NZ National XV? I can't believe Ireland blew them away like that.

Watch for Geordan Murphy in the real deal tests - talented young winger from Tigers roster - he is lightening fast and a smart rugger player.

Last edited by Havak on 11-06-2002 at 15:18

	11-06-2002 16:14									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What is the comparative strength of that NZ National XV? I can't believe Ireland blew them away like that.

The National XV came from the provincial comp's second and third division teams. Enough said. With the All Blacks squad busy, and the Maori squad over here, there probably weren't too many players left in the Shaky Isles. Helen Clark probably turned down the loose head spot.

	11-06-2002 19:16									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think I've seen a match for it from the Italians actually. In their first season in the six nations playing Ireland the Irish scrum half Peter Stringer turns round to check the position of his opposite number before putting the ball into the scrum only to meet the guys fist - *lights out*. The referee is right behind both of them and the Italian is red carded whilst protesting his innocence all the way to the touchline.

Crazy! Must be that latin blood...

I dont think Ive ever seen a red card given out in a rugby match. I presume that means the team is down a man for the rest of the game?

	12-06-2002 04:24									#67
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Just like soccer. I've seen it happen for ongoing professional fouls.

	12-06-2002 12:45									#68
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quote: National XV came from the provincial comp's second and third division teams

The interesting thing is the National leagues (i.e 2nd and 3rd division) in England could assemble a team that had a real chance of beating Ireland - but then it's hard to compare between different leagues at the best of times.

Yes red card is permanently off the field.

Red cards are not exactly common here but you do see them several times a season for overt violent foul play (anything blatantly in front of the ref). The yellow card is intended for non-violent foul play of course, but it has grown to be used a a cop-out by refs afraid of showing red - I have therefore seen punches regularly recieve only yellow. Then again you should have seen one red at least as Giffen saw it against the Boks last year for a very silly (Johnson-esque?) punch on Skinstad? A very silly lapse from a player with great potential (but he is no Eales yet eh Finbar?).

Then again I've seen one casual punch cause one yellow card and then an outcry for a public lynching (and we are right back to Johnson). The best thing is Pienaar getting involved in that Jonno witch hunt helped hasten his departure from Saracens as the English game finally got tired of the whining loser.

	12-06-2002 13:53									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The interesting thing is the National leagues (i.e 2nd and 3rd division) in England could assemble a team that had a real chance of beating Ireland - but then it's hard to compare between different leagues at the best of times.

Tee-hee. We don't even have a national league. Just the club comps in Sydney and Brisbane and very minor club comps in the other capitals.

quote: Then again you should have seen one red at least as Giffen saw it against the Boks last year for a very silly (Johnson-esque?) punch on Skinstad? A very silly lapse from a player with great potential (but he is no Eales yet eh Finbar?).

Terrific potential, Giffen. Sadly he missed most of the S12 season through injury.

	12-06-2002 18:01									#70
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quote: Just the club comps in Sydney and Brisbane and very minor club comps in the other capitals

Well the Super 12 is an okay competition of course. I can't help but feel you miss something not having a national tournament though.

I like the way it helps kill all arguments over who are the best side in a given country after all. Or are you going to try and sell me that Waratahs are a btter side than Brumbies

Crikey, I had better run for it now...

	12-06-2002 20:25									#71
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I cant think of anything to say, so ill just bump this thread....

	12-06-2002 21:08									#72
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quote: I can't help but feel you miss something not having a national tournament though.

Funny. I thought the British used to lecture the French that their championship was a bad thing and the reason why they played foul back when they decided to ban France from the 5 nations (OK it was quite a few decades ago). Still, you have a point. National championship is something great.

	12-06-2002 22:51									#73
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Hi everybody,

I never thought I would find a Rugby thread on Apolyton. First of all, I must admit I have not understood everything (we are in the same boat LDiCesare) and that I don't know some of the players you are talking about (I know the greater part of them though).

About Australia vs. France, it's rather difficult to estimate the capacity of our players to win the tests. The french championship is only finished since a week, the season has been long and tough and the french players are known to be unpredictable. But we have some reasons (the six nations tournament and the victories against southern hemisphere teams) to believe they can learn to be more regular under the guidance of Bernard Laporte and his staff. At least we hope they will.

About Joe Roff : the fact he is one of the best player in the world is not to be discussed. But, I've not seen him at his best in France. I've followed the whole french championship (as usual) and went to the stadium everytime a match was played in Toulouse (LdiCesare : j'étais ŕ Montpellier, sniff ! ). Joe Roff has played like a good (and certainly not best) level french championship player, no more, no less.

I would like to insist on the fact the northern hemisphere Rugby, and especially the french one, is very different from the southern hemisphere play. When I look at the Tri-Nations or the Super 12, I sometimes wonder if we are playing the same game (undisputed scrums for example) and if we are following the same rules (some faults we consider very bad are almost ignored by the referee). The european Rugby is more based on the fundamentals (pushed scrums, mauls, attack towards the wings) while yours is (in my opinion) more physical, "mechanical" (please forgive my lack of vocabulary) and certainly more spectacular.
Perhaps Joe Roff has never really managed to get used to these differences, perhaps Biarritz' coaches have tried to use Joe Roff in a wrong way or the game played by his team didn't fit well with his qualities, perhaps was he on holidays... ?

I don't consider we are playing a superior Rugby though I think we, in Europe, are closer to the spirit of the game as it was created. And, honestly, I don't like most of the new rules and the changes they have provoked in this game. The simple fact some have seriously imagined the scrums should not be pushed anymore is horryfying.

It would be great if we could play at the same game with the same rules though I don't think it will be enough for a northern nation to win the RWC, but our time will come (when the stars are right...).

There is only one thing I'am sure of, the "Brennus Shield" is the most beautiful trophee in the world.

	12-06-2002 23:03									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Hi everybody,

Hi! Great to see more rugby fans posting here! Welcome!

quote: they can learn to be more regular under the guidance of Bernard Laporte and his staff. At least we hope they will.

I hope so too, I would like to see France beat Australia, but Im from New Zealand, so thats to be expected...

quote: I would like to insist on the fact the northern hemisphere Rugby, and especially the french one, is very different from the southern hemisphere play. When I look at the Tri-Nations or the Super 12, I sometimes wonder if we are playing the same game (undisputed scrums for example)

Undisputed scrums?? Never seen that myself.

quote: and if we are following the same rules (some faults we consider very bad are almost ignored by the referee).

Can you give me an example?

quote: The european Rugby is more based on the fundamentals (pushed scrums, mauls, attack towards the wings) while yours is (in my opinion) more physical, "mechanical" (please forgive my lack of vocabulary)

Thats funny, I would have said the exact same thing about NH rugby...

quote: and certainly more spectacular.

oh, ok.

quote: I don't consider we are playing a superior Rugby though I think we, in Europe, are closer to the spirit of the game as it was created.

I like to think of SH rugby as being more....progressive

quote: And, honestly, I don't like most of the new rules and the changes they have provoked in this game. The simple fact some have seriously imagined the scrums should not be pushed anymore is horryfying.

I honestly dont know what makes you think scrums are becoming uncontested in the SH, has someone suggested this should be the case? Maybe youve been watching rugby league

	13-06-2002 00:40									#75
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Hi,

In the SH the number 9 is introducing the ball into the scrum, the ball is generally quickly played out. When I write the scrum are undisputed, I mean that many SH teams are not trying to push powerfully in order to win the ball (at least this is what I perceive). Of course, and thankfully, this is not the case for the mauls.

In France, the scrums are used by powerful packs to earn an advantage, recover some balls and wear out the other players. I don't think this is anymore the case in the SH. The "Sporting Union Agenais", finalist of the French championship, have won their semi-final against the "Stade Toulousain" (Bouhouhouhou ! ) thanks, among other reasons, to their first three lines which have disrupted the "Stade Toulousain" game by committing themselves to a hard fight each scrum. The key of the final has been in the hand of the first and third lines. It has not been the most beautiful game I have seen, but it has certainly be one of the most interesting rugby fight I have ever seen.

There are no different rules per se in the SH of course but huge differences in interpretation. I find the SH referees are too lenient :

- Rucking : almost always sanctionned in France (except when the referee is looking elsewhere), the only player which can do some rucking is the half-scrum and only in order to recover the ball.
- Violent entry into a scrum : almost never whistled in the SH,
- Entering by the side of the scrum : not often signaled in the SH,
- Diving over the scrum : is there any rule against that in the SH...

I've not seen a SH rugby match since the end of the Super 12 but let me see a game and I will point you many differences in interpretation.

Whatsoever, I've seen wonderful games in the super 12, the Tri-nations or the various tests, but I still consider the SH Rugby is evolving into something close to an other game, perhaps more progressist, but still another game. I prefer the Rugby as we play it in Europe, less spectacular but more like a hard fight. I like games with a strong fight between the first lines sacrifying themselves for the backs and their wonderful runs... as the all blacks (or should I say the all backs ) terrorizing the planet a few years ago. Today, as seen from Europe, the SH play is rather standardized (give me back the "all blacks" I knew... uuuuh, wait until the end of the future RWC, please).

New rules are sometimes a boon (recovering the throw in a lineout when you are kicking the ball out of the field after a penalty) when they are "in the spirit" of the game. This is not always the case.

Whatever my opinion, the SH teams are great teams... and will stay great teams.

	13-06-2002 01:14									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Hi, In the SH the number 9 is introducing the ball into the scrum, the ball is generally quickly played out. When I write the scrum are undisputed, I mean that many SH teams are not trying to push powerfully in order to win the ball (at least this is what I perceive). Of course, and thankfully, this is not the case for the mauls.

I see what you are getting at now. You are referring to the fact that its unusual for the team that isnt feeding the ball into the scrum to win it in the scrum. I am happy with this because a scrum is usually the result of a knock-on or some other handling error. I think the team that made the error should lose the advantage whether they have a good scrum or not.

quote: In France, the scrums are used by powerful packs to earn an advantage, recover some balls and wear out the other players. I don't think this is anymore the case in the SH.

I have seen it happen a couple of times, but I admit it isnt the norm.

quote: There are no different rules per se in the SH of course but huge differences in interpretation. I find the SH referees are too lenient :

We in the SH feel that NH refs are too strict. We like to see a game that is allowed to flow more than a game with rules that are rigorously enforced.

quote: - Violent entry into a scrum : almost never whistled in the SH, - Entering by the side of the scrum : not often signaled in the SH, - Diving over the scrum : is there any rule against that in the SH...

Im a bit confused here, are you referring to the ruck?

	13-06-2002 03:08									#77
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You're right Cagilasta, SH games are more fluid and it's mainly because the referees are more tolerant and also because the SH players are more respectful of the said referees (something some french players and spectators should learn from).

But I think the SH referees are too lenient, there should be a middle ground between the SH way of refereeing and the NH way. This is sometimes the case when a NH team meets a SH team. A mix of the two refereeing styles allied to the opposition of the NH and SH way of playing has often produced some of the most entertaining rugby I have ever seen.

My only critcism is that the nature of the game is changing because of the excess of this tolerance. I admit many european referees (as Derek Bevan and Didier Méné) should understand the rules are here for the ball to live. Something your referees have perfectly understood.

My writings about the scrum at the end of my previous post are not related to the ruck, I'am rather talking about the behaviour of the players around the spontaneous mauls (I shouldn't have used the word scrum, sorry )

About the scrum (this is the good word this time) and the push : some scrums are crumbled by the players in France, but this is far from the rule. The guilty players are sanctionned and some yellow cards are distributed.

Most of the scrum are really "fighted" by the first lines and when a handling error is made, this is often because one side have rightfully overpowered its opponents. The most spectacular scrums are often seen in the second half when the work of the ascending pack is paying its toll. This way of playing makes for a very different rugby, the scrum becomes a powerful part of a devastating attack to come from the wing. The scrum itself is an important part of strategy in the french rugby and to a lesser extent in the british one.

Actually, I'am dreaming of a Rugby inspired by the best of the Southern and Northern hemispheres, a kind of fusion.

See you soon...

	13-06-2002 04:50									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Well the Super 12 is an okay competition of course. I can't help but feel you miss something not having a national tournament though.

The Super 12 comp's what it is - an international comp for developed talent. It's the grassroots comp that we need. In fact, it's fairly amazing that Australian rugby has done as well as it has based on the narrow base it is. There has been talk over the years of putting some sort of national league into place - well, make that NSW clubs -v- Queensland clubs - but it has never come to fruition. Finance is the argument that usually kills it. And the fact that the various state administrators can't even agree what century it is doesn't help.

	13-06-2002 05:11									#79
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Sorry Caligastia I have awfully mispelled your name in my previous post.

	13-06-2002 05:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin About Joe Roff : the fact he is one of the best player in the world is not to be discussed. But, I've not seen him at his best in France. I've followed the whole french championship (as usual) and went to the stadium everytime a match was played in Toulouse (LdiCesare : j'étais ŕ Montpellier, sniff ! ). Joe Roff has played like a good (and certainly not best) level french championship player, no more, no less.

Obviously I haven't seen Joe Roff playing in France, but I think his style of play - developed over years with the Brumbies and Wallabies - probably didn't immediately fit the European style. Of course he could change his style - adapt - but that takes a little while. There is another factor, too. Joe, while a very fine player, is very, very arrogant. Maybe that had something to do with it, too.

	13-06-2002 05:55									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Hi, In the SH the number 9 is introducing the ball into the scrum, the ball is generally quickly played out. When I write the scrum are undisputed, I mean that many SH teams are not trying to push powerfully in order to win the ball (at least this is what I perceive). Of course, and thankfully, this is not the case for the mauls.

Yes, there is an identifiable difference between NH and SH scrums. In the SH, when they have the feed, the scrum is used as more of a springboard for moving the ball elsewhere. It's a different style brought about as much as anything, I think, by the sheer lack of size of our props. It's a very long time since there was a SH front row of mammoth proportions. So, rather than fight a battle you're likely to lose, different methods were used. These days, we look for props who are mobile and - fingers crossed - with ball skills.

quote: There are no different rules per se in the SH of course but huge differences in interpretation. I find the SH referees are too lenient : - Rucking : almost always sanctionned in France (except when the referee is looking elsewhere), the only player which can do some rucking is the half-scrum and only in order to recover the ball. - Violent entry into a scrum : almost never whistled in the SH, - Entering by the side of the scrum : not often signaled in the SH, - Diving over the scrum : is there any rule against that in the SH...

I know you've said you didn't mean the scrum. But I have to disagree with your points.

- Rucking is allowed in the SH. Anyone can ruck. You see it a lot. What's not allowed is "stomping". There's obviously a difference. As Brumbie and Wallaby Owen Finnegan discovered when he was suspended for "stomping" on an opponent's head when the ball was nowhere near.
- Violent entry is also penalised. It happened a number of times this season.
- Entering from the side is also penalised. It happened in every game this season. In fact, it was probably the most common penalty.
- Diving over is also penalised. Again, it happened a lot.

Obviously, a referee will sometimes miss things, but, for the most part, these things are policed. Our British friend, Havk, says that SH players are often off-side at the breakdown, but I don't think they are as often as he likes to think.

	13-06-2002 13:02									#82
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Well given I think it's 99% of the time it probably couldn't be quite that often.

Welcome to our French posters, great to see you join the discussion, and some fantastic points. I don't have time to do all of them justice but I did find Tamerlins idea of the Fusion interesting - I very much think the north has as much to offer the south as the other way around - but the SH Unions (okay I mean mainly O'Neil) like to project that this simply isn't the case?

One thing made me laugh though

quote: the SH players are more respectful of the said referees

No I don't think so - I can't speak for French sides but English teams are massively respectful to referees becuase if you aren't you will be penalised.

But listen to the Wallabies in the tri-nations, it's like 15 lawyers barracking a judge for 80 minutes.

Compare Johnson and Gregan for the way they speak to referees - Martin never concedes penalties for whining (for cracking skulls sure, but not backchat).

quote: (OK it was quite a few decades ago).

It is a long time ago. but it was a mistake. We made a lot of mistakes whilst trying to cling onto an archaic amateur ethos, and punishing the French for being too Professional was silly in the extreme - I apologise on behalf of my country.

quote: "Stade Toulousain"

Fantastic to see a Toulouse fan here - Tigers have had some great tussles with you over the years, the semi-final in 96-97 being one of the best club games I have ever seen.

Tigers have drawn Beziers in next years competition, how do they rank alongside Stade Toulousain?

And to Finbar/Caligastia guys I've had to skim read before a meeting so if i have missed anything pick me up on it please as I couldn't do so many posts justice - but I would pick this up

quote: with ball skills.

What like Foley had?

You know I found myself nodding at all Tamerlin's points about the differences between hemispheres (especially the too-loose refs down there) so I guess that proves there really is a different mind set between north and south if An Englishman and Frenchman are agreeing.

	13-06-2002 14:37									#83
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quote: Tigers have drawn Beziers in next years competition, how do they rank alongside Stade Toulousain?

To be blunt, they are weaker (and I am not toulousain, so I believe I'm fair).
They have a few strong players but they do not have the same collective the Stade (or Agen or Biarritz) has. Their season was a relative disappointment as they didn't make it to half finals. I am not sure which players stay there and which will leave next season though.

	13-06-2002 16:10									#84
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Thank you LDiCesare. I had heard they are only in the Heinekin cup at all because of the trouble Agen got into not trying hard enough against Ebbw Vale???

I am hoping to make the game in Beziers as well as Tigers home game.

What is your team if you do not mind me asking? I hope it isn't Stade Francais after we beat them in last years final.

	13-06-2002 16:15									#85
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Good grief! Havak has finally found someone to talk NH rugby with! We'll never hear the end of it!

	13-06-2002 16:17									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Havak so I guess that proves there really is a different mind set between north and south if An Englishman and Frenchman are agreeing.

Nuh. Just goes to prove two can be as wrong as one.

	13-06-2002 17:44									#87
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quote: We'll never hear the end of it!

You can bet on that!

quote: Just goes to prove two can be as wrong as one.

You know it's funny but that same thought has occurred to me several times whilst exchanging views with you SH lads.

I've been researching my away trip to Beziers - Gulf of Lion and not far from Spain as well - should be a nice trip all right.

	13-06-2002 19:39									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Sorry Caligastia I have awfully mispelled your name in my previous post.

No worries, Im used to it.



I think Tamerlin has a good point about the fusion of NH and SH styles. I think it would be best for all concerned if we could take the best of what the two styles have to offer and create a more comprehensive international standard. That way the NH sides will have less to complain about when we beat them

So which area of the opposite hemishere's style would you most like to see in your hemisphere's style guys?

	13-06-2002 20:12									#89
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Well the chief part of SH style I would like to see us adopt is...winning the Webb Ellis trophy.