13-06-2002 20:36									#91
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My favourite team would be Pau, and then Biarritz (I spent some time in Pau and some good time in the pays basque - I remember the final they lost 10 years ago and am glad they made it this year). There is hardly any good rugby team where I come from (I am from North Eastern France, I got both directions wrong).
Beziers is a nice place. If you can spend some time around, it is pretty inlands and there is the sea also. The Stade de la Mediterranee is great. I even played there once, and, well, it is really a beautiful stadium. Nowadays I am more accustomed to playing on fields where grass is something that is supposed to grow where the wingers wait for a ball that never comes, and spectators are limited to one player's girlfriend, two wounded players and a coach...

	14-06-2002 05:00									#92
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This thread is very time consuming but very interesting.

Thank you LDiCesare, I would not have answered better. And yes Beziers is qualified for the Heineken Cup because Agen can't participate. It seems Beziers will suffer from a lack of sponsors for the season to come, not good for the future of the ASBH (Association Sportive Béziers Hérault).

About the best team in France, I can't answer anything else except the "Stade Toulousain", I admit this choice has more to do with the heart though.

Thank you Havak, I thought the help would come from France and especially from LDiCesare, I 'am glad an Englishmen, moreover fan of the venerable Leicester Tigers has came to help me (I remember the match you are writing about, it has been played in England, a difficult Transformation - almost near the border of the field - kicked by Stéphane Ougiers gave us the victory by one point at the last second... exhausting !)

If you ever come in Toulouse, I would be happy to offer you a beer at the "Frog and Rosbiff", a pub where british citizens and frenchmen gather peacefully to have a drink and have fun. There are even special afternoons each Six Nations Tournament.

One good point again for Havaq, it's true the British players are among the most respectful of a referee's decision, even if some players have perpetrated some bad acts in the past (I think France has its own bad boys, Olivier Magne won't contradict me, as all the SH teams..., there are even some "killers" in South Africa).

When I wrote the SH players are more respectful of the referee, I didn't meant at all they were "Angels". Most of the time, the SH players get up quickly and go back ten yards as quickly. In this case, their respect of the decision makes for a more fluid game.
In most of the cases of course, sometimes the SH players can be very nervous, as in the NH.

I don' have more time to spend with you tonight, it was a very busy day.

For Caligastia though :

One think I would like to see in the NH is the bonus point for three tries and the bonus point for a game lost by less than 5 points (I'am not sure of the exact number).

In the SH, I would like more disputed scrums...


More tomorrow...

And yes Havaq, I think the SH players are often offside... what is the referee doing ?

Last edited by Tamerlin on 14-06-2002 at 05:08

	14-06-2002 06:14									#93
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Frankly, Caligastia, I'm not sure what I'd like to take from the NH and add to the SH on the basis that, these days, the difference isn't as marked as it once was. From my (admittedly limited) observation, NH rugby is a lot more athletic than it was. Their forwards are, for the most part, more mobile and skilled than they once were, and the halves seem to kick less relentlessly than they once did. I suppose, if anything, I'd borrow their use of the pack - as referred to by Tamerlin. It's a fascinating part of rugby as long as it doesn't dominate. At which point it becomes, IMHO, a less interesting game.

	14-06-2002 06:23									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin This thread is very time consuming but very interesting.

It has become more interesting and time-consuming with the extra input from the fresh contributors! I also can't think of a nicer way to spend the day than nattering about rugby.

BTW, Wendell Sailor is starting on the wing for the Wallabies -v- The Maori XV. He's there by default - if either Ben Tune or Scott Staniforth were fit, he'd be on the bench. Matt Rogers is on the bench but will join the game either at 5/8 or inside centre. It's very much another trial game. Daniel Herbert's playing out of position at inside centre to allow Matt Burke to slot into #13 and Sterling Mortlock's on the wing. I suspect Dan Herbert's days are numbered.

Oh, and apparently the Brumbies' Graeme Bond is off to join English club Sale. He's quick, very strong and talented either on the wing or in the centres. He should do well.

	14-06-2002 14:01									#95
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My flippant reply to Caligastia was of course because I was under time pressure but it was heart felt all the same

Finbar, as so often, put his finger on it. The gap is much more narrow than it once was. I feel Northern forwards may have the edge now their fitness matches the SH lads, but as I have remarked before our half backs and backs don't link as effectively as either of the big two (can we agree both England and France have cruised past RSA?).

I can assure you Finbar with the latest laws the
forwards don't dominate games up here in the way you fear - the scrum and maul law changes of the last decade have ensured that (remember the days when scrums could roll the length of the pitch over a five minute span?).

I have to say though I think Northern forwards have understood far more clearly the heritage of the code - which is competition for the ball. It sets us apart
from League, a code I know you have no time for, so it surprises me to see you talking about your fear of forwards dominating the game - Union is all about
forwards winning quality possession to be exploited by the backs so let me throw this one back at you - by curtailing the forward game I feel SH teams often risk pushing us towards a League style of uncontested possession that puts me right off at times.

And as Caligastia hinted unless we get an amalgam of hemispehere styles the future of the game is rocky - I can certainly see a point at which the Home Unions (and France) might refuse to play John O'Neil Rugby football.

Am I trolling? Maybe a little...

I really feel for LDiCesare - it must be awful for a Rugby fan to be trapped in NE France, possibly almost as bad as being a cricket fan in England? Pau and Biarritz are both class sides, I know we have had some real classic games with the former (we have never drawn Biarritz, whihc is a good thing probably!)

quote: Nowadays I am more accustomed to playing on fields where grass is something that is supposed to grow where the wingers wait for a ball that never comes, and spectators are limited to one player's girlfriend, two wounded players and a coach...

I know this feeling very well!

If Beziers are as weak as seems to be being suggested they may have a terrible time in their pool. I don't need to point out that Tigers are as stiff a test as can be had in Europe but Neath are called the Welsh All Blacks (after their kit and playing style) and Calvisano are
surprisingly dogged for an Italian club side (they have a Kiwi coach of course).

quote: Stéphane Ougiers gave us the victory by one point at the last second... exhausting !)

Ah you are actually remembering the next game between us in the Pool roundin 97-98. It was indeed an awesome kick but to be fair, the way you played
that day you were worthy winners.

I was referring to the semi-final of 10 months earlier where Neil Back and Steve Hackney linked to burst through your centres in our 22 and run the length of
the pitch for the killing try. Thuis was the semi before we went on the lose to Brive in the final.

Brive are no longer in your top league I understand?

quote: If you ever come in Toulouse, I would be happy to offer you a beer at the "Frog and Rosbiff", a pub where british citizens and frenchmen gather peacefully to have a drink and have fun.

I'll raise a glass to that!

My thanks, I will definitely take you up on that should we meet Stade Toulousain at any stage.

quote: Most of the time, the SH players get up quickly and go back ten yards as quickly. In this case, their respect of the decision makes for a more fluid game.

Hmm interesting - possibly they are marginally better at retreating from penalties but SH teams are appalling at at getting back onside at rucks for example, and of course the All Blacks pioneered (and Wallabies perfected) the stroll back with arms in the air "I'm-not-interfering-with-play-ref-honest" to interfere with opposition ball.

Respect is such a broad term I suppose - and all teams play the officials in certain ways?

quote: One think I would like to see in the NH is the bonus point for three tries and the bonus point for a game lost by less than 5 points (I'am not sure of the exact number).

The English League has this for Four tries and losses of seven points or less. It is a SH idea that works really well I have to admit.

quote: I think the SH players are often offside... what is the referee doing

In the SH referees are noramlly doing exactly what the ARU tells them to eh Finbar? I wonder why the NZ union puts up with it. Oh hold on they don't
anymore do they - you threw them out.

The Aus-Maori game is on live here Saturday morning - hope I get up in time. The wales-SA game and NZ-italy game are also on Sky Sports - it could be a long day for me (I am supposed however to be in the pub mid-day to watch England in the soccer *spit* world cup).

	14-06-2002 19:20									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin One think I would like to see in the NH is the bonus point for three tries and the bonus point for a game lost by less than 5 points (I'am not sure of the exact number).

Actually, its a bonus point for 4 tries, and a bonus point for a game lost by 7 points. Thats only in the Super12 though, which european competition would you like to see that implimented in? The Heineken Cup?

Havak brought up an interesting point awhile back about how in the super12 you can win every game except the final and lose the competition because of that one loss. Apparently in european competitions the winner is the one who is at the top of the table at the end of the competition with no semi-finals or finals. Which way do you think it should be Tamerlin and LiDeCesare? Did you voice your opinion on that one yet Finbar? I myself am undecided.

	14-06-2002 19:39									#97
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Didn't Biarritz become French Champions by winning some kind of Super 12 type play off last weekend?

It's a very subjective thing but when I raised the issue I did point out the English mind-set is very much that the consistently best team (i.e. top of the League at season end) should be champions.

In our league the Play off competition is incidental and the 3rd and 8th placed teams contested a final the big boys simply were not interested in. That the eighth placed team could have won it undermines the whole play off conept for me, as anything other than a money spinner anyway.

I would be interested if either Finbar or yourself Caligastia really think ACT would have been deserving champions given Canterbury's utter dominance of the league stage?

	14-06-2002 19:42									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I have to say though I think Northern forwards have understood far more clearly the heritage of the code - which is competition for the ball. It sets us apart from League, a code I know you have no time for, so it surprises me to see you talking about your fear of forwards dominating the game - Union is all about forwards winning quality possession to be exploited by the backs so let me throw this one back at you - by curtailing the forward game I feel SH teams often risk pushing us towards a League style of uncontested possession that puts me right off at times.

I honestly dont think the difference between league and union is simply down to the forwards. Neither do I think SH forwards are lacking in winning quality possesion and dominating the game. Just look at George Smith and Chris Jack, they are two shining examples of dominant forwards. George Smith in particular is a master of winning ball at the breakdown. Players like him are one of the Brumbies and Wallabies major strengths. And Chris Jack has a bright future ahead of him in the All Blacks.

I feel that if there is any curtailing of the forward game, its in the NH. I say this because it seems that when you talk of the forwards "dominating" the game, you want to see more play in general from them. If the game is all forwards bashing skulls, then it can get boring as there is less movement. Just as a game can get boring if its nothing but backs scoring easy tries. The SH has a good balance of the two at the moment IMO.

quote: And as Caligastia hinted unless we get an amalgam of hemispehere styles the future of the game is rocky - I can certainly see a point at which the Home Unions (and France) might refuse to play John O'Neil Rugby football.

I cant. Theres no way SH sides would want to stop touring the NH, and although they often lose crucial games, english rugby fans are eternal optimists.

quote: Am I trolling? Maybe a little...

Ha!

quote: Hmm interesting - possibly they are marginally better at retreating from penalties but SH teams are appalling at at getting back onside at rucks for example, and of course the All Blacks pioneered (and Wallabies perfected) the stroll back with arms in the air "I'm-not-interfering-with-play-ref-honest" to interfere with opposition ball.

This has been curtailed recently. Halfbacks tend to throw the ball into opposition players who are offside in order to get a penalty.

	14-06-2002 19:45									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I feel Northern forwards may have the edge now their fitness matches the SH lads

They also have a heritage our forwards don't.

quote: I can assure you Finbar with the latest laws the forwards don't dominate games up here in the way you fear - the scrum and maul law changes of the last decade have ensured that (remember the days when scrums could roll the length of the pitch over a five minute span?).

Mmmm. Well, yes. Once a month was enough. But a rolling maul is a different thing altogether.

quote: I have to say though I think Northern forwards have understood far more clearly the heritage of the code - which is competition for the ball. It sets us apart from League, a code I know you have no time for, so it surprises me to see you talking about your fear of forwards dominating the game - Union is all about forwards winning quality possession to be exploited by the backs so let me throw this one back at you - by curtailing the forward game I feel SH teams often risk pushing us towards a League style of uncontested possession that puts me right off at times.

Sorry, Havak, but I tried to make this point in response to Tamerlin - I couldn't disagree more about this lack of contest in the SH. And I assume we're talking about the same thing. I've seen some mighty scrum battles. AB-Wallaby scrum battles have been legendary over the years. I don't have one ounce of fear that SH rugby is turning into League. Over the years, the fundamental difference between the hemispheres, IMHO, was what happened to the ball after it left the scrum. And that, now, is where the hemispheres are coming together.

quote: I really feel for LDiCesare - it must be awful for a Rugby fan to be trapped in NE France, possibly almost as bad as being a cricket fan in England? Pau and Biarritz are both class sides, I know we have had some real classic games with the former (we have never drawn Biarritz, whihc is a good thing probably!)

I must've misread him. I thought he originated in the NE.

quote: Hmm interesting - possibly they are marginally better at retreating from penalties but SH teams are appalling at at getting back onside at rucks for example, and of course the All Blacks pioneered (and Wallabies perfected) the stroll back with arms in the air "I'm-not-interfering-with-play-ref-honest" to interfere with opposition ball.

The Lions obviously learned at their masters' knees.

quote: The Aus-Maori game is on live here Saturday morning - hope I get up in time.

I can't wait to see if Matt Rogers can produce under real pressure.

	14-06-2002 19:45									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It's a very subjective thing but when I raised the issue I did point out the English mind-set is very much that the consistently best team (i.e. top of the League at season end) should be champions.

I think this is a valid point.

quote: I would be interested if either Finbar or yourself Caligastia really think ACT would have been deserving champions given Canterbury's utter dominance of the league stage?

I dont think they would have been, but then again, Im not exactly unbiased.

	14-06-2002 19:51									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Havak brought up an interesting point awhile back about how in the super12 you can win every game except the final and lose the competition because of that one loss. Apparently in european competitions the winner is the one who is at the top of the table at the end of the competition with no semi-finals or finals. Which way do you think it should be Tamerlin and LiDeCesare? Did you voice your opinion on that one yet Finbar? I myself am undecided.

The bottom line's pretty simple, Caligastia. M-O-N-E-Y! That's why, for example, the Australian Football League increased the size of their Final Four; first, to a Final Six; second, to a Final Eight. Finals matches are very big earners. I don't have strong feelings either way on the matter. I probably lean to the finals system for the simple reason that you're seeing the top teams battling each other. Okay, they've played a couple of times during the season - let's watch 'em go at it again!

	14-06-2002 19:55									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I honestly dont think the difference between league and union is simply down to the forwards. Neither do I think SH forwards are lacking in winning quality possesion and dominating the game. Just look at George Smith and Chris Jack, they are two shining examples of dominant forwards. George Smith in particular is a master of winning ball at the breakdown. Players like him are one of the Brumbies and Wallabies major strengths. And Chris Jack has a bright future ahead of him in the All Blacks.

Couldn't agree more.

quote: I feel that if there is any curtailing of the forward game, its in the NH. I say this because it seems that when you talk of the forwards "dominating" the game, you want to see more play in general from them. If the game is all forwards bashing skulls, then it can get boring as there is less movement. Just as a game can get boring if its nothing but backs scoring easy tries. The SH has a good balance of the two at the moment IMO.

Ditto.

And now I have to go to bed! It's 1 am! Nighty-night all.

	14-06-2002 19:59									#103
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The bottom line's pretty simple, Caligastia. M-O-N-E-Y! That's why, for example, the Australian Football League increased the size of their Final Four; first, to a Final Six; second, to a Final Eight. Finals matches are very big earners. I don't have strong feelings either way on the matter. I probably lean to the finals system for the simple reason that you're seeing the top teams battling each other. Okay, they've played a couple of times during the season - let's watch 'em go at it again!

Yeah, I do like finals matches. It probably more fair not to have them, but it wouldnt be as entertaining.

	14-06-2002 20:38									#104
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quote: Yeah, I do like finals matches. It probably more fair not to have them, but it wouldnt be as entertaining.

No argument to that - but we have two cup competitions here that serve the same purpose. The play offs therefore are something of a joke. We need to sort it out really.

quote: Yeah, I do like finals matches. It probably more fair not to have them, but it wouldnt be as entertaining.

Now that is smart

quote: and although they often lose crucial games, english rugby fans are eternal optimists

We have to be. It has to get better some day, surely?

quote: George Smith in particular is a master of winning ball at the breakdown. Players like him are one of the Brumbies and Wallabies major strengths. And Chris Jack has a bright future ahead of him in the All Blacks.

And it doesn't worry you at all that neither man would currently get in the England 22? Neil back is the master that Smith aspires to be and Lewis Moody is certainly more dynamic than Smith and almost a lunatic in the way he commits himself. Jack I need to see more of to be sure but as I have said before I have heard great things about him.

quote: If the game is all forwards bashing skulls, then it can get boring as there is less movement

Not what I meant, honest

I mean the type of athletic performance witnessed at twickenham in November where the front five were joinign the flankers and moving all around the park hitting the oppostion hard and starving them of ball. England suffocated the Australian pack that day but it didn't lack movement and it wasn't boring - but yeah I'm biased.

But I accept we will not be the man until we beat the man - in his own back yard. That means Aus and NZ - but the day is coming...(please god?)

quote: The Lions obviously learned at their masters' knees.

Much good it did us.

quote: But a rolling maul is a different thing altogether.

Oh yes, it's an art form. I'm well aware Australian players dislike them - but I'm afraid that seems to be because they can't counter them effectively?

I wonder how our French friends feel about them?

[quote]They also have a heritage our forwards don't. [quote]

What a nice way of saying we used to breed heffers to lie on the ball all day and hiot anyone coming near?

Okay I'd like to see our French amis comment on some of the points as we are beating each other with the same old sticks (and you SH guys outnumber me!).

Hope they were happy dream Finbar, enjoy all the weekend rugby and I'll catch up with you all Monday (in various time zones).

	14-06-2002 21:09									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And it doesn't worry you at all that neither man would currently get in the England 22?

Do you have any evidence to back up that outrageous claim??

quote: Neil back is the master that Smith aspires to be and Lewis Moody is certainly more dynamic than Smith and almost a lunatic in the way he commits himself.

I think Finbar will agree with me when I say...BOLLOCKS!

I think we have a difference of opinion here that is probably due to the fact that Finbar and I dont watch as much NH rugby as you, and you dont watch as much SH rugby as us. When you see great performances from the same great players often enough it tends to skew your perspective of other great players that you dont watch as much. The only way to settle this is to have England play NZ and Australia.

Unfortunately we have to wait till November to see England play Australia, and next year to see England play NZ.

	14-06-2002 21:11									#106
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Sorry, I have not yet read the last posts but I've read Caligastia thought about the nature of the competitions.

I wouldn't like at all a Championship that would end without what we name "Final Phases" in France. The "Brennus Shield" would have a very different flavor without semi-finals and a final, actually it wouldn't mean anything at all anymore. I think I'am rather fair on this issue as the Stade Toulousain would have been champion at the end of the play off...

All along the "Final Phases", there is always something in the air, there is even a sentence that is describing what we feel at this time, we usually say it when the atmosphere around the field is hot : "there is a Final Phases Perfume..."

About the bonus points for four tries and defeat by less than 7 points , I would like this rule to be applied to all the competitions.

	15-06-2002 06:02									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And it doesn't worry you at all that neither man would currently get in the England 22? Neil back is the master that Smith aspires to be and Lewis Moody is certainly more dynamic than Smith and almost a lunatic in the way he commits himself. Jack I need to see more of to be sure but as I have said before I have heard great things about him.

At the risk of echoing Caligastia - BOLLOCKS!

quote: I mean the type of athletic performance witnessed at twickenham in November where the front five were joinign the flankers and moving all around the park hitting the oppostion hard and starving them of ball. England suffocated the Australian pack that day but it didn't lack movement and it wasn't boring - but yeah I'm biased.

Which is, basically, the best way to counter the (for want of a better term) Wallabies/Brumbies style. Get in their faces, pressure them, don't give the time or space to play their game. To an extent, it's what those who beat the Brumbies this season did to them. The thing is, though, it has to be done well because, with so many players committed, there are holes all over the place.

quote: Oh yes, it's an art form. I'm well aware Australian players dislike them - but I'm afraid that seems to be because they can't counter them effectively?

No, Australians have never been good at countering rolling mauls. Their habit is simply to pull down the maul and give away a penalty. OTOH, a good rolling maul is very hard to counter. It's one of the great sights in rugby.

quote: What a nice way of saying we used to breed heffers to lie on the ball all day and hiot anyone coming near?

Well, quite. I have to assume GB lost a number of props to Mad Cow Disease. In its animal form.

quote: Okay I'd like to see our French amis comment on some of the points as we are beating each other with the same old sticks (and you SH guys outnumber me!).

Actually, I'm working on a means of filtering out our French friends' posts in order to maintain the very fair and reasonable situation in which we outnumber you.

quote: Hope they were happy dream Finbar, enjoy all the weekend rugby and I'll catch up with you all Monday (in various time zones).

Actually, I had a couple of unpleasant little nightmares. I hope they weren't pointing towards the Wallaby -v- Maori game tonight.

	15-06-2002 06:05									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think we have a difference of opinion here that is probably due to the fact that Finbar and I dont watch as much NH rugby as you, and you dont watch as much SH rugby as us. When you see great performances from the same great players often enough it tends to skew your perspective of other great players that you dont watch as much. The only way to settle this is to have England play NZ and Australia. Unfortunately we have to wait till November to see England play Australia, and next year to see England play NZ.

I have only one question. If England are so good, why don't they clean up the 6 Nations every year against - in certainly 4 cases - second-rate opposition?

	15-06-2002 12:38									#109
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Is this thread active!
Echoing the championship format:
The French championship has a final mainly because it makes for a match many people go to see. Going to Paris for a final is something supporters love. And I guess the federation and clubs love the money too.
But it is also important to consider that the French championship, whose formula changes every year, always manages to split the elite in 2 or more groups, meaning one club can in theory meet another one twice in the initial rounds, twice in the second stage, and once in final, thus 5 times in a season, whereas they will never play a side that was eliminated in the other initial group. Thus, if groups weren't balanced, a result based on number of wins wouldn't be very satisfying. I believe after the first stage we might hava had Perpignan for a champion, but they crumbled when they were set against the higher level teams. The current system tries to promote elite clubs by having them meet each other more often. I consider this year's championship system was one of the best we have had.
As for ball conquest and forward fights, well, in France that is something we like a lot. A few teams had a strong reputation for rolling mauls. They are a form of art, I agree, but it takes a while to learn it. I also like to see the props in a scrum. You sometimes realize early in a game that a prop is being crushed, and that usually pays later in the game. The problem is it requires some knowledge of the scrum and a good viewpoint to appreciate that. Rarely can you get this on TV. The good point in NH learnt from the south is that now, after a rolling maul, we tend to run with the ball whereas a few years ago we would have kicked. Considering a good maul does a lot to mine a defense, I think the frowards fights contribute to making the fights more spectacular.
As for my location, I was born in NE, and now live near Paris, which is not much better as far as high level is concerned, but there are more people thus more teams available to play with.

	15-06-2002 23:15									#110
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I have only one question. If England are so good, why don't they clean up the 6 Nations every year against - in certainly 4 cases - second-rate opposition?

Ok, so I have a soft spot for England...

	15-06-2002 23:31									#111
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New Zealand defeat Ireland 15-6


A pretty awful from performance from the All Blacks. Ireland were always in the game until the last few minutes when a second try was finally scored. The All Blacks seem to be suffering from a lack of commitment and cohesion. They have so many brilliant players, but for some reason they are unable to perform as a unit, which is strange when you consider that most of the team are Crusaders. Their performance was so bad that even the NZ crowd were booing them at the end of the game. I dont blame them.


Australia defeat NZ Maoris 27-23


This was easily the most exciting game of the weekend. The Maoris were down 27-6 and managed to come back late in the second half with a 3 try blitz. I dont know whether you had the same commentators or not Finbar, but the kiwi ones I had just about creamed themselves when the maoris got that third try.
In the end it was the kicks at goal that saved the lacklustre Wallabies from defeat. The game finished with an incredible 18 phases from the maori. Great game!


None of the Tri-nations teams look particularly impressive at the moment, so hopefully things will improve soon.

	15-06-2002 23:35									#112
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Is this thread active! Echoing the championship format: The French championship has a final mainly because it makes for a match many people go to see. Going to Paris for a final is something supporters love. And I guess the federation and clubs love the money too. But it is also important to consider that the French championship, whose formula changes every year, always manages to split the elite in 2 or more groups, meaning one club can in theory meet another one twice in the initial rounds, twice in the second stage, and once in final, thus 5 times in a season, whereas they will never play a side that was eliminated in the other initial group. Thus, if groups weren't balanced, a result based on number of wins wouldn't be very satisfying. I believe after the first stage we might hava had Perpignan for a champion, but they crumbled when they were set against the higher level teams. The current system tries to promote elite clubs by having them meet each other more often. I consider this year's championship system was one of the best we have had. As for ball conquest and forward fights, well, in France that is something we like a lot. A few teams had a strong reputation for rolling mauls. They are a form of art, I agree, but it takes a while to learn it. I also like to see the props in a scrum. You sometimes realize early in a game that a prop is being crushed, and that usually pays later in the game. The problem is it requires some knowledge of the scrum and a good viewpoint to appreciate that. Rarely can you get this on TV. The good point in NH learnt from the south is that now, after a rolling maul, we tend to run with the ball whereas a few years ago we would have kicked. Considering a good maul does a lot to mine a defense, I think the frowards fights contribute to making the fights more spectacular. As for my location, I was born in NE, and now live near Paris, which is not much better as far as high level is concerned, but there are more people thus more teams available to play with.

I guess we all agree that finals are the most exciting way to finish a competition.

You must be excited about the upcoming France-Australia game

	16-06-2002 00:20									#113
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I am looking forward to the Australia-France tests, but I may not be able to see them due to several constraints . Tonight, we have Argentina-France on TV in 2 hours, so I want to see that. The Pumas fared well against the AB so it should be interesting.

	16-06-2002 06:04									#114
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Sorry, not much time this week-end.

A result : Argentina 28 - France 27...

It seems there is a tradition, every time France has won the grand slam the summer tests have been bad for the team.

They will have to play much, much better against Australia.

See you monday.

Caligastia : do you think someone here doesn't know why the New Zealand team is called the "all blacks" ? If yes, it could be interesting to tell the story behind this name.

Hint : this is not because they are dressed in black.

	16-06-2002 07:34									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia New Zealand defeat Ireland 15-6 A pretty awful from performance from the All Blacks. Ireland were always in the game until the last few minutes when a second try was finally scored. The All Blacks seem to be suffering from a lack of commitment and cohesion. They have so many brilliant players, but for some reason they are unable to perform as a unit, which is strange when you consider that most of the team are Crusaders. Their performance was so bad that even the NZ crowd were booing them at the end of the game. I dont blame them.

It was a very strange AB performance, wasn't it? As you say, most of the team are Crusaders but it was like they'd never met till they took the field. I can only think that whatever John Mitchell wants them to do differs hugely from what the Crusaders coach had them doing.

quote: Australia defeat NZ Maoris 27-23 This was easily the most exciting game of the weekend. The Maoris were down 27-6 and managed to come back late in the second half with a 3 try blitz. I dont know whether you had the same commentators or not Finbar, but the kiwi ones I had just about creamed themselves when the maoris got that third try. In the end it was the kicks at goal that saved the lacklustre Wallabies from defeat. The game finished with an incredible 18 phases from the maori. Great game!

We had Oz commentators. They were actually quite fair - applauding the Maori performance. What really bothered me about the Wallaby effort was that, for all the talk of developing alternative methods, they seemed to play the same old game. OTOH, to be fair to Wendall Sailor, he fitted in well, and his tackle-breaking was very good.

quote: None of the Tri-nations teams look particularly impressive at the moment, so hopefully things will improve soon.

Well, yes. I watched most of the SA -v- Wales match too. Talk about an orgy of incompetence.

	16-06-2002 21:57									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Sorry, not much time this week-end. A result : Argentina 28 - France 27...

Wow! Good for Argentina! Not to upset you Tamerlin, but Im kind of happy with that result because it shows Argentina are getting to be a real force in the rugby world, and perhaps this victory will help make rugby more popular in that part of the world. I tend to go for the underdog if NZ or Australia are not involved...

quote: Caligastia : do you think someone here doesn't know why the New Zealand team is called the "all blacks" ? If yes, it could be interesting to tell the story behind this name. Hint : this is not because they are dressed in black.

They got the name from a mistake in an english newspaper. The sentence was supposed to say "they played like they were all backs"...or something like that, but backs was misspelled "blacks" and the name stuck.

	16-06-2002 22:01									#117
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quote: Originally posted by finbar We had Oz commentators. They were actually quite fair - applauding the Maori performance.

You would have laughed at the kiwi commentry. One of them commented on Latham's being unshaven with his socks around his ankles saying "Look at Latham...cool as."

	17-06-2002 04:45									#118
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Tee-hee. He hails from a tiny outback NSW town. He just doesn't know any better.

	17-06-2002 04:47									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia They got the name from a mistake in an english newspaper. The sentence was supposed to say "they played like they were all backs"...or something like that, but backs was misspelled "blacks" and the name stuck.

Thank God for Pommy sub-editors.

	17-06-2002 13:31									#120
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Guys, guys, guys, what am I going to do with you?

quote: Finbar and I dont watch as much NH rugby as you, and you dont watch as much SH rugby as us

This is very very true, and I know my perspective is biased. However in the cold light of day Jack would need to get past Johnson, Grewcock and Kay to make our 22. It isn’t enough therefore to be a promising young player –he needs to be a proven International of great stature to get past those boys. And as I say I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he is that. But my point is I do not think he would simply walk into the England side in any way, shape or form.

Smith is different. I have seen him play in the flesh and he has no way lived up to what I was expecting from Finbar’s original mentions of him. Sure he is great at the breakdown if he gets a ref who is suitably “laissez faire”, but on the back foot he struggles more than some Celts I have seen, he tends to give penalties away and not be able to adjust to refs who are penalising him so he keeps giving the same penalties? He still has promise, and he’s a good player – but he is not one of the greats yet for me.

But it does bring us back to your excellent point about different viewing experience as to dismiss Neil Back and Lewis Moody with ‘spherical objects’ does seem to condone the point? If they aren’t better than George then they certainly aren’t worse either.

Fortunately we will get what we want very soon – for I can make you happy Caligastia by letting you know that this November England play all three Tri-nations countries at Twickers on consecutive weekends – we don’t need to wait until next year at all.

quote: The thing is, though, it has to be done well because, with so many players committed, there are holes all over the place.

Absolutely – and you make us pay when you find them. We can still learn much from yourselves and the Kiwis about exploiting opportunities. As a total guess I would say we convert perhaps a half of the comparative opportunities we get. I blame our girly backs

quote: It's one of the great sights in rugby.

I have a vague memory of McQueen referring to it as cheating – now when was that?

quote: Actually, I'm working on a means of filtering out our French friends' posts in order to maintain the very fair and reasonable situation in which we outnumber you.

quote: I have only one question. If England are so good, why don't they clean up the 6 Nations every year against - in certainly 4 cases - second-rate opposition?

It’s actually very easy to answer this – all five games are “cup finals”. Everyone in that competition wants to beat England. I’m deadly serious when I say to you that the Welsh and Scots count their campaign a success if they lose every other game but beat England (the Irish like to beat us but drink regardless afterwards). How do you counter that kind of passion???

It’s also true that all those “trip ups” have been away fixtures – and as my French friends will tell you this years loss in France was no disgrace to England – they just met a French team that was on fire a la semi-final of RWC99. We wanted to meet the French side that walked out for the final of RWC instead.

I only got to see one game over the weekend – RSA-Wales – and it damn near oput me to sleep. A terrible display by the Boks, unless they lift it big time they will draw a blank in the tri-nations.

The Wallaby-Maori game looked tight? The report I read on NZ was a big thumbs down, and the French result stunned me totally. England face the Pumas next weekend with a devlopment squad – hope we do better. France have to take on Australia next - they will need to improve drastically?