17-06-2002 15:03									#121
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About Argentina vs. France, on one side it is good to see Argentina getting stronger. On the other side it is not only sad to see France lost, it is sad to see how Argentina won.
The first half time was the most boring lick-lineout-scrum-kick-maul-kick play to be seen. In the second half, the pumas were more penalised for their fouls and the game could start. Problem is the pumas played very little, though they succeeded what they tried. France tried to play too much (like attacking from the 22 when out of position, nobody in depth and getting an interception), and missed a lot (a 4 vs 1 occasion in the first half time, a drop goal, the last-minute kick failed...).
It is difficult to play when you attack without being placed properly. A few in-play kicks would have done the difference, as well as better handling of the ball. I don't know how many balls were intercepted by Argentinans or lost in a maul, but really, you can't expect winning with such poor handplay. England, being more regular than France, should beat Argentina.
As for Australia, France can beat them if they wake up. We do miss Galthie, though, so it may be a bit hard for the team to get the propoer spirit for the next matches. So bad I willnot be able to watch them.

	17-06-2002 15:03									#122
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I missed this intially but one of the best results at the weekend was Canada beating Scotland - well done the cannucks!

	17-06-2002 15:08									#123
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quote: So bad I willnot be able to watch them.

Hopefully LaPorte will smack them back into shape this week?

You have every chance against the Wallabies I think as Eddie Jones is already talking you up in his mind games.

England do maintain their shape extremely well these days so I would hope we don't get exposed in that way against the Pumas.

	17-06-2002 17:20									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Smith is different. I have seen him play in the flesh and he has no way lived up to what I was expecting from Finbar’s original mentions of him. Sure he is great at the breakdown if he gets a ref who is suitably “laissez faire”, but on the back foot he struggles more than some Celts I have seen, he tends to give penalties away and not be able to adjust to refs who are penalising him so he keeps giving the same penalties? He still has promise, and he’s a good player – but he is not one of the greats yet for me.

I don't think anyone's calling him a great. Yet. That will come later.

quote: Fortunately we will get what we want very soon – for I can make you happy Caligastia by letting you know that this November England play all three Tri-nations countries at Twickers on consecutive weekends – we don’t need to wait until next year at all.

Good! So we won't have to wear the "away syndrome" excuse?

quote: I have a vague memory of McQueen referring to it as cheating – now when was that?

Because he couldn't work out how to stop them. As a matter of fact, how do you stop a good rolling maul? Splinter it?

quote: I only got to see one game over the weekend – RSA-Wales – and it damn near oput me to sleep. A terrible display by the Boks, unless they lift it big time they will draw a blank in the tri-nations.

Wasn't it tedious? SA have gone backwards.

quote: The Wallaby-Maori game looked tight? The report I read on NZ was a big thumbs down

They had a brilliant last 10 minutes with 3 tries. The game never reached any great heights. It didn't fill me with great hope for the Wallabies. Though, as one scribe pointed out, it's become fairly traditional for the team to start the season scratchily. Their lead up to the Lions series was crap.

	17-06-2002 17:46									#125
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Re: the Ireland NZ game, the papers here (NZ) are reporting the loud booing at Carisbrook at the end of the match - not just something about better Irish play than ABs play (I didn't see it, I was watching the WC ), but about how 13 ABs were Crusaders (Otago's old rival in NPC). There was a huge cheer when an Otago man was subbed on. They have also kicked off Umaga from the ABs squad (don't know why). Cullen has been told to f*** off too for not playing his club rugby side.

Apart from the teachers' strikes it's the biggest story on today.

Just thought I'd offer the view from NZ.

	17-06-2002 18:00									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I missed this intially but one of the best results at the weekend was Canada beating Scotland - well done the cannucks!

I only watch 3 or 4 full Rugby games a year. I'm glad I chose to make this Test match one of them.

Thrilling victory. Went right to the last seconds. 26-23

	17-06-2002 19:06									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Havak This is very very true, and I know my perspective is biased. However in the cold light of day Jack would need to get past Johnson, Grewcock and Kay to make our 22. It isn’t enough therefore to be a promising young player –he needs to be a proven International of great stature to get past those boys. And as I say I haven’t seen enough of him to know if he is that. But my point is I do not think he would simply walk into the England side in any way, shape or form.

It would be your loss
Perhaps he wouldnt "walk on", but given the chance I am confident he would prove himself worthy. Give it a couple of seasons and youll se what Im talking about. Not that I would want him to play for England anyway...

quote: Fortunately we will get what we want very soon – for I can make you happy Caligastia by letting you know that this November England play all three Tri-nations countries at Twickers on consecutive weekends – we don’t need to wait until next year at all.

Thats good news! I didnt realise that because for some reason they dont have those games on the calendar at www.rugbyheaven.com - my main rugby site.

quote: Absolutely – and you make us pay when you find them. We can still learn much from yourselves and the Kiwis about exploiting opportunities. As a total guess I would say we convert perhaps a half of the comparative opportunities we get. I blame our girly backs

I dont know much about the England backs, but I am impressed with Robinson.

quote: It’s actually very easy to answer this – all five games are “cup finals”. Everyone in that competition wants to beat England. I’m deadly serious when I say to you that the Welsh and Scots count their campaign a success if they lose every other game but beat England (the Irish like to beat us but drink regardless afterwards). How do you counter that kind of passion???

awwww...nobody loves England? Poor poor England... *gets out the violin*

quote: I only got to see one game over the weekend – RSA-Wales – and it damn near oput me to sleep. A terrible display by the Boks, unless they lift it big time they will draw a blank in the tri-nations.

I didnt even finish watching it because I was so bored. The weather probably slowed the game down in addition to the poor performance. It was really pissing down there.

	18-06-2002 04:40									#128
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Re: the Ireland NZ game, the papers here (NZ) are reporting the loud booing at Carisbrook at the end of the match - not just something about better Irish play than ABs play (I didn't see it, I was watching the WC ), but about how 13 ABs were Crusaders (Otago's old rival in NPC). There was a huge cheer when an Otago man was subbed on.

God bless Kiwi national pride.

quote: They have also kicked off Umaga from the ABs squad (don't know why). Cullen has been told to f*** off too for not playing his club rugby side.

Umaga was dropped post-Ireland? And was the Cullen thing post-dropping from the squad for the Irish game? Or was that why he was dropped from the squad?

	18-06-2002 05:10									#129
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Couple of things. Brumbie winger and centre Graeme Bond is denying he has signed with English club Sale. Well, at least till he finishes his Australia A commitments. But Queensland flanker Mark Connors is going to Bath. The ARU have insisted they both play out their ARU contracts, meaning they won't be free till at least October.

And the Wallabies will be playing 3 of the Six Nation teams next year in the lead up to the World Cup in October-November. Originally, they were going to play two home tests against England and a one-off international against Ireland. Now they're going to play one each against England, Ireland and Wales.

	18-06-2002 13:00									#130
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quote: Perhaps he wouldnt "walk on", but given the chance I am confident he would prove himself worthy.

And that of course was my point exactly.

I never said he wasn't a very good player, I just pointed out those three lads in the set-up are very good players indeed.

I hope he fulfills the promise you see in him. The only NZ locks we get to see regularly here are Jones (getting old but still pure class) and Blackadder (frankly not impressive at all?).

9th, 16th and 23rd November at twickers - NZ, Aus and RSA in that order. A tasty month of rugby?

quote: I dont know much about the England backs, but I am impressed with Robinson.

The boy is high class all right. I still prefer him on the wing to fullback myself.

quote: awwww...nobody loves England? Poor poor England... *gets out the violin*

Unfortunately it's true as well as funny - think of the rivalry between NZ and Aus and multiply it a hundred times - thats how much the Welsh hate us at Rugger.

quote: It was really pissing down there.

The Welsh should have been right at home then!

If Sale have announced Bond they probably have him - the guy running them is a shrewd businessman. He probably just realised the timing got him into trouble? Did Connors play with Foley? Someone should warn him that Bath are totally awful at the monent (totally unbiased opinion there of course).

quote: Now they're going to play one each against England, Ireland and Wales.

All modesty aside two games against England and one against Ireland would have been better preperation than anything against Wales. Did you see the game last weekend? Wales best attacking player was number 8 - it alwasy is these days.

	18-06-2002 17:03									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Did Connors play with Foley?

Yes. A lot.

quote: Someone should warn him that Bath are totally awful at the monent (totally unbiased opinion there of course).

Well, not everyone can be the team Havak supports.

quote: All modesty aside two games against England and one against Ireland would have been better preperation than anything against Wales.

I quite agree. I have no idea why the change happened. Maybe the Poms didn't want to play twice. Maybe the Poms have arranged another match for themselves.

	18-06-2002 17:48									#132
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quote: Yes. A lot.

Rather explains the move then. I guess Foley is lining him up long term for a coaching job at the club.

quote: Well, not everyone can be the team Havak supports.

Not every team is that fortunate for sure.

Trying to qualify the opinion I offered - out of 12 teams in the Premiership in the 2001-2002 season Bath finished 11th with 7W 0D 15L.

As my team finished in first place with 18W 0D 4L I feel fairly confident is saying that comparatively Bath are much much worse. An influx of Australian talent is perhaps their best hope

quote: Maybe the Poms have arranged another match for themselves.

Nothing seems finalised yet but the rumour is England would prefer a test with the ABs rather than a second with the Wallabies.

	18-06-2002 19:32									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Havak 9th, 16th and 23rd November at twickers - NZ, Aus and RSA in that order. A tasty month of rugby?

For sure! The 16th is my birthday, so hopefully my gift from the Wallabies will be them losing...

quote: Unfortunately it's true as well as funny - think of the rivalry between NZ and Aus and multiply it a hundred times - thats how much the Welsh hate us at Rugger.

Thats because everyone in the british isles hates the Engish. You evil oppressors!

	18-06-2002 19:41									#134
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quote: so hopefully my gift from the Wallabies will be them losing...

Finger crossed you get your wish.

quote: You evil oppressors!

We are dead nice really. Just better at Rugby than anyone else in the British Isles.

So have you heard the rumours about Daryl Gibson moving north?

	18-06-2002 19:43									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Havak So have you heard the rumours about Daryl Gibson moving north?

No I havent, is he moving to England?

	18-06-2002 19:54									#136
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Maybe. Rumoured to be in talks with Bristol.

	18-06-2002 19:59									#137
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I hope he stays in NZ.

	18-06-2002 20:03									#138
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Given the way he has apparently worked to get back in the ABs it seems strange to move now.

But there is a lot of money behind Bristol at the moment - it may be the proverbial "offer he can't refuse"?

	18-06-2002 20:05									#139
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He can refuse it. Jonah has turned down plenty of juicy offers from other teams Im sure.

WHeres their patriotism dammit!

I still havent forgiven Zinny for leaving us when he did.

	18-06-2002 20:16									#140
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Jonah is a shrewd lad, every time he needs to renegotiate his AB contract there is suddenly talk of moving abroad.

It could be worse you know - just look at the flood of Aussies that head north.

Zinny - not the best move he ever made. Good as he was he couldn't make Harlequins look anything other than the average side they are. As you know though he got a really sweet deal there back before such deals started to be moderated by wage caps etc - he sold you out for his pieces of silver?

	18-06-2002 20:25									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Zinny - not the best move he ever made. Good as he was he couldn't make Harlequins look anything other than the average side they are. As you know though he got a really sweet deal there back before such deals started to be moderated by wage caps etc - he sold you out for his pieces of silver?

Damn straight! We lost him, Bunce and Fitzpatrick all in one go!

	19-06-2002 04:31									#142
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Hey Caligastia. We have to put a stop to these money-grubbing English clubs poaching our best players in lieu of the lazy bastards growing their own. Any ideas? Our Foot & Mouth Disease strategy worked for a while but ran out of legs. So to speak. Any more bright ideas?

	19-06-2002 06:33									#143
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Hi,

Too many posts to read, I've read the results of all the matches this morning.
Hope I will have the time to reply tomorrow.

And, don't worry Havak, I like England... well cooked (It's a joke, I really like England).

	19-06-2002 07:20									#144
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Hey Tamerlin - why aren't you in bed asleep?

	19-06-2002 12:38									#145
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I'm pleased to hear that Tamerlin - although I'm quite used to being an Englishman against all comers in this thread

Joking aside Finbar it is a serious problem that so many tri-nations players end up here. It wasn't so bad when they were all retirees but now younger players are being lured. Some clubs here have turned their back on home grown development entirely (most notably a London based club called Saracens).

I'm sure you can guess which club has the strongest record of developing young English talent these days.

	19-06-2002 13:02									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I'm pleased to hear that Tamerlin - although I'm quite used to being an Englishman against all comers in this thread

No one likes a martyr!

quote: Joking aside Finbar it is a serious problem that so many tri-nations players end up here. It wasn't so bad when they were all retirees but now younger players are being lured. Some clubs here have turned their back on home grown development entirely (most notably a London based club called Saracens).

Time for a quota system, methinks.

quote: I'm sure you can guess which club has the strongest record of developing young English talent these days.

At a guess, I'd reckon you were born somewhere else - Guernsey, the Isle of Man, the Outer Hebrides - and only moved to Leicester so you could gloat!

Apart from that, why aren't you at work?

	19-06-2002 13:56									#147
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Hey Tamerlin - why aren't you in bed asleep?

I have some trouble to go to bed early, actually I can't help going to sleep very lately. It's a bit tiring but I really like to live by night, playing civilization computer games (CtP2, Civ3...) for example.

I'am about to read all the posts since this week-end, see you later.

	19-06-2002 13:57									#148
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quote: No one likes a martyr!

quote: Time for a quota system, methinks.

Bizarrely we have one as far as I know. Three foreign nationals on the pitch for a team at any one time in the premiership I think (it certainly was few seasons ago).

However FOREIGN means players from outside the EU rather than outside the UK (so you could field 15 French men if you liked without breaking the rule - Brussels and their crazy rules at play, you can't have restraint of trade within the Eu you see).

In addition any player who qualifies by current IRB criteria for the country is not considered foreign either. In other words one UK nationality grandparent makes you a native player, as does having spent three years in country - and most tri-nations players qualify on one of these loop holes.

It really needs overhauling - it has more holes than a sieve and the current situation is quite untenable. You don't have the quantity of players to keep losing them on the current scale and we can't afford to have dosmetic talent pushed aside by them either.

However I should point out Josh Kronfeld is an adopted Englishman and Caligastia's homeland cannot have him back.

quote: At a guess, I'd reckon you were born somewhere else

I'm actually pure born NE Leicestershire - about 18 miles away from the city itself. It makes me as much a rarity as a Man Utd fan actually from Manchester.

I served my time on the terraces when we constantly came second to Bath so I unapologetically enjoy the good times at the moment.

quote: Apart from that, why aren't you at work?

Sssshhhh! I am. But the OT gives me the comic relief I need from the tedious projects I'm trying to drive along here.

	19-06-2002 17:33									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Havak In addition any player who qualifies by current IRB criteria for the country is not considered foreign either. In other words one UK nationality grandparent makes you a native player, as does having spent three years in country - and most tri-nations players qualify on one of these loop holes.

I don't know that many of the Australians would. There was that - I've forgotten his name! - who went to Wales because one of his rellies was Welsh. Never heard from again, as far as I know.

quote: Sssshhhh! I am. But the OT gives me the comic relief I need from the tedious projects I'm trying to drive along here.

Oh! Okay. Sorry. I'll keep my voice down ...

	19-06-2002 17:47									#150
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quote: Never heard from again, as far as I know.

Ah yes - Jason Jones-Hughes was the name I think. Played a few games for the A side and just broke into the Welsh squad when he got badly injured playing in the Welsh League. Has never looked like even a Welsh international since let alone a Wallaby.

quote: I'll keep my voice down ...

No need, they will just think anything they hear is me having another tantrum.