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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:19
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Waow, I have to remember to look at this thread everyday, look at it every second day and you are good for a one hour read before replying.
I will try to reply to everybody's posts before Finbar filter is released. 
LDiCesare : the first half was really bad and you have summed up the game appropriately. But I don't agree on all of the issues of your post. First of all, it is clear the Argentinans were the most eager to win this match, some of the french players seemed reluctant to "fight" in order to win it. Yes, the french have been very clumsy but they also proved themselves lacking of of a clear mind. As far as I can remember two tries have been scored after an interception by an Argentinan player. In my opinion, it means the french game was too predictable. 
Another important factor is that, at the time of the test match, our Championship was only finished since a week. The players haven't worked together enough and some of the players are tired. This is in no way an excuse but it can explain why some players have played far under their real level. 
Havak : you're right, I was talking about the wrong game between our favorite teams. As far as I can remember, all the matches between the Tigers and the Stade have been great rugby games (I'am not sure but I think I've seen Dean Richards playing in Toulouse, also a legend in France...) .
About rolling mauls, you know they are an important part of the game especially in France (Biarritz players have been feared for this all along this season) and can be a strong weapon. How to stop a rolling maul, the defense has to commit more men to the maul, the attacking forwards have the advantage of the move and don't have to add players. Ideally, the defense has a choice, resisting the pressure by adding men and thus creating a hole in its defending line (which is one of the goals of the maul), letting the maul rolls and going back (only if the attackers are far from your try line) or crumbling the maul which is rightfully sanctionned by a penalty. In France, many rolling mauls are followed by an attack launched by the backs, and when this attack is well executed it can make for a really beautiful try. Yes, as Finbar told it, this is one of the great sight of Rugby. 
More generally, I would say the perfect game is one in which I can see a great fight forward (we should rather look at England and France for scrums), a creative pair of half-scrum and half-back (Wilkinson, Gregan, Galthié, Larkham) and enterprising backs. This game should also be well balanced between attack and defense. I think we agree that such a game can only arise if a good referee is in charge of the game and if he is neither too lenient neither too severe.
This season, I've seen some matches that have been mostly played forward and nevertheless very entertaining. I guess this is a matter of taste and culture.
Caligastia : I agree with you when you write some matches can be boring when the game is limited to skullbashing. This year I've seen few SH matches (and I regret it) and some of them were boring mainly because the two teams were clumsy and their players uninspired, in this case I have seen many, many mauls and mishandled spontaneous scrums. But the fact the game has been played forward is not to be blamed, the players seemed unable to do something else. I'am convinced the game forward is only boring when the players are uninspired, that is when this game form is considered as an end in itself, which should not be. 
Some matches were equally uninteresting because I had the feeling to see a Thirteen player game played by fifteen rugbymen : pass - run - block - pass - run - block - maul - pass - run - block... is there someone playing rugby here ?
By the way, do you remember the block is forbidden by the rules ? The block has deeply changed the nature of the defenses and has became so important the tackle is almost disappearing (and a good tackle, down to the knees, is really a beautiful sight).
About the All Blacks name, yes it is a typo. During a controversial tour in South Africa, at the time of the apartheid, the NZ team was so impressive a South African journalist claimed "they are all backs". The South African personal secretary charged to type the text did not understood what the journalist was talking about, she thought it was a mistake and typed "they are all blacks"... 
Unfortunately, I won't have the opportunity to watch the Tri-Nations this year, my access to the appropriate private channel is momentarily disrupted. 
I will have to rely on the written press and your (biased) comments. 
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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quote:
First of all, it is clear the Argentinans were the most eager to win this match, some of the french players seemed reluctant to "fight" in order to win it. Yes, the french have been very clumsy but they also proved themselves lacking of of a clear mind. As far as I can remember two tries have
been scored after an interception by an Argentinan player. In my opinion, it means the french game was too predictable. |
I agree in fact. When I talked about bad handling of the ball, it included throwing it without looking, i.e. getting intercepted. As for lack of clear mind, that shows when you attack with no depth, which is what I criticised too. And yes, the Argentinans wanted to win more than the French.
As for being intercepted because of being predictable, well, yes, but only in part. They were mainly uninspired and lacked vision. Had they attacked with some depth, they wouldn't have suffered from that. Had they kicked when they couldn't attack... Oh well, they will do better next time.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
Caligastia : I agree with you when you write some matches can be boring when the game is limited to skullbashing. This year I've seen few SH matches (and I regret it) and some of them were boring mainly because the two teams were clumsy and their players uninspired |
Which teams did you see play?
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in this case I have seen many, many mauls and mishandled spontaneous scrums. But the fact the game has been played forward is not to be blamed, the players seemed unable to do something else. I'am convinced the game forward is only boring when the players are uninspired, that is when this game form is considered as an end in itself, which should not be.
Some matches were equally uninteresting because I had the feeling to see a Thirteen player game played by fifteen rugbymen : pass - run - block - pass - run - block - maul - pass - run - block... is there someone playing rugby here ? |
I am curious to find out which teams you saw play. Most of the better ones in the super12 this year had plenty of inspiring forward play. I only got to see the best super12 teams play because by rugby channel doesnt bother showing the average teams.
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By the way, do you remember the block is forbidden by the rules ? The block has deeply changed the nature of the defenses and has became so important the tackle is almost disappearing (and a good tackle, down to the knees, is really a beautiful sight). |
Not quite sure what you mean by "the block". Do you mean when a player running with the ball fends off a tackler? Or do you mean players are blocking other players who dont have the ball? That is illegal.
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About the All Blacks name, yes it is a typo. During a controversial tour in South Africa, at the time of the apartheid, the NZ team was so impressive a South African journalist claimed "they are all backs". The South African personal secretary charged to type the text did not understood what the journalist was talking about, she thought it was a mistake and typed "they are all blacks"... |
Was it in South Africa? I thought it was in England...
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Unfortunately, I won't have the opportunity to watch the Tri-Nations this year, my access to the appropriate private channel is momentarily disrupted.
I will have to rely on the written press and your (biased) comments. |
Finbar and I arent biased, its Havak the english guy whos biased.
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Caligastia
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Any predictions for the games this weekend guys?
I reckon Australia will beat France by 10 points, and New Zealand will beat Ireland by 20.
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:19
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Caligastia, I don't think Ireland will be beaten by 20 points, rather between 10 and 15. 
About France, I'am afraid the score will be heavy if our boys are playing like last saturday. But as they are already considered beaten (as in the World Cup against New Zealand) and have lost a match they should have not lost... they can win ! A weird effect of the french spirit I guess, the day you give the french players a large victory they lose by one point, the day you predict they will be wiped like mere dust they win... I think Bernard Laporte can give France the regularity this team lacks (regularity in victory, of course... ).
About the "All Blacks" name, I would swear it comes from South Africa... I will check...
About the SH bad matches I've seen this year, I can say for sure one was played in South Africa (I know, I know...) but I don't remember the name of the teams (I think Butch James and Mark Andrews were playing in the SA team). Another rather uninteresting game involved the Auckland Blues at the beginning of the Super Twelve (perhaps the second or third match of the season), at the end of the second period we could say we had seen nothing (we have this kind of match too...).
The language can sometime be a barrier. What I call the Block is when a player is just opposing its weight and strenght to stop a running player instead of tackling him. Most players are using one of their shoulders when they meet their opponent, a South African player is famous for its violent blocks, isn't he nicknamed "butcher" James.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
Caligastia, I don't think Ireland will be beaten by 20 points, rather between 10 and 15. |
I am hoping New Zealand will play a lot better than last week.
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About France, I'am afraid the score will be heavy if our boys are playing like last saturday. But as they are already considered beaten (as in the World Cup against New Zealand) and have lost a match they should have not lost... they can win ! A weird effect of the french spirit I guess, the day you give the french players a large victory they lose by one point, the day you predict they will be wiped like mere dust they win... I think Bernard Laporte can give France the regularity this team lacks (regularity in victory, of course... ). |
France definitely has a chance to win, I guess by saying Australia by 10 I am making the "safe" bet.
I definitely think France will be more determined after losing to Argentina.
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The language can sometime be a barrier. What I call the Block is when a player is just opposing its weight and strenght to stop a running player instead of tackling him. Most players are using one of their shoulders when they meet their opponent, a South African player is famous for its violent blocks, isn't he nicknamed "butcher" James. |
I know what you mean now. Those are dangerous tackles, and "butcher" James has been penalised many times for this.
I havent noticed the SH doing this any more than the NH. Maybe it was just the game you saw...
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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I just saw the team Laporte will show against Australia saturday. Uh, the coach wasn't happy after Argentina, it seems. Changed the first row entirely, 1 lock, the n8 (but that one was a no-brainer as Harinordoquy hadn't played only because of a wound), the 9 and 10, plus the full back. As much as I can understand why he changed many players, I don't understand why, behind, he changed Brusque. I thought he had been quite good last match despite the loss, and would rather have changed a center or wing... But of course, he played at Pau and now at Biarritz so maybe it's just I like him, and Laporte made it clear that he wasn't his first choice for full back?
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Caligastia
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Whats your prediction LDiCesare?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
Waow, I have to remember to look at this thread everyday, look at it every second day and you are good for a one hour read before replying. |
Here's a handy tip to save you time reading, Tamerlin. If you see a Havak post with the words Tigers or Jonno or England in the first couple of words, don't bother reading it. You will have seen it all before.
quote:
About rolling mauls, you know they are an important part of the game especially in France (Biarritz players have been feared for this all along this season) and can be a strong weapon. How to stop a rolling maul, the defense has to commit more men to the maul, the attacking forwards have the advantage of the move and don't have to add players. Ideally, the defense has a choice, resisting the pressure by adding men and thus creating a hole in its defending line (which is one of the goals of the maul), letting the maul rolls and going back (only if the attackers are far from your try line) or crumbling the maul which is rightfully sanctionned by a penalty. In France, many rolling mauls are followed by an attack launched by the backs, and when this attack is well executed it can make for a really beautiful try. Yes, as Finbar told it, this is one of the great sight of Rugby. |
So the bottom line is, you can't do much about a good rolling maul. Commit defenders to it, you leave gaps, and the attacking team will spread the ball wide. Don't commit defenders to it and the maul will roll endlessly. It's a wonderful dilemma. I can't think of many other sports that offer such dilemmas. I also don't know why Australians are so ordinary at both mounting rolling mauls and defending against them. I remember the All Blacks of about 4 or 5 years ago - at their frightening peak - were masters at it. Watching Zinzan directing the operation was awesome.
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By the way, do you remember the block is forbidden by the rules ? The block has deeply changed the nature of the defenses and has became so important the tackle is almost disappearing (and a good tackle, down to the knees, is really a beautiful sight). |
You defined "block" a bit later, I noticed, and that you think it came from the SH. I can't say that I noticed a lot of it in either Australia or NZ. The South Africans are probably to blame. Butch James, lately, in particular. He should have been sent off in just about every game he's played. In fact, because we have no South Africans posting in this thread, how about we blame them for everything that's wrong with rugby?
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I will have to rely on the written press and your (biased) comments. |
I can only echo Caligastia's typically astute observation re our Leicester chum. 
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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My pronostic:
NZ should beat Ireland by 10 points.
I can't see the US winning against Scotland, even though Scotland are not what they used to be.
France Australia: I don't think France will win, but they can prove me wrong. I believe that a brand-new first row who isn't used to playing together is a bit of a mistake, and the scrum+fly halves may have some trouble against the opposition. I hope I am wrong.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
The first words I spoke to him were "you are in my seat mate". I reconsidered them when he stood up. He is a cracking bloke though - took a load of drunken Enlgishmen barracking him in his stride |
"You're in my seat, mate!". Remind me to watch where I sit if we're ever in the same pub!
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Yes I have to accept that - I would rather live in Aus than South Africa or Argentina myself - but something about jersey switching still sits wrong with me - it's just an emotional response I guess? |
Put it this way - if someone you value zorfs, it's wrong. If they're expendable, c'est la vie! (That's for our Continental friends)
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Tell em you are winding me up? We are quite used to the great unwashed Aussie public not knowing who Deano is but a fan of the beautiful game really should know. |
Moi? Wind anyone up? I must stop with the French. I wonder if there are any Italian rugby fans out there. I learned Italian for 15 months and I wouldn't mind practising it.
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Please be assured this person never voted for the witch and has never voted for anyone from the party she represented either. I detest her, everything she stood for and hate the changes she wrought in the country I love, turning us into a bunch of mainly selfish me first morons.  |
Yeah, well. We've had 3 terms of Little Johnnie Howard, possibly Thatcher's greatest fan. It's remarkable how people of that ilk manage to divide a country, turning it against itself.
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it really is - with his talent he could have been a massive ambassador for the game world-wide. As it was he got this strange chip on his shoulder (about England in particular?), and therefore put backs up every time he spoke up here. As I have said before give me a Lynagh or Eales anytime - two guys I respect enormously. |
I don't think Campo has a problem with England in particular. In fact, I don't think even he knows what's going to come out of his mouth next. I think it was Nick Farr-Jones - another great player but prize d*ck - who said there's a short-circuit between Campo's brain and his mouth.
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And I am sorry here but I have to support France on Satruday - even though I suspect Aus in Aus is too big an ask for them. NH solidarity and all that. |
We'll find out. I just want to see if the Wallabies can come up with a variation on the norm. I don't care if they stuff it up trying, as long as there's some progress.
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Oh hold on, a whole post without mentioning....naa, won't do it. |
Jonno, Tigers, England. There you go! Saved you the bother!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Good luck - as far as I know there are more Kiwis than Italians in Italian rugby anyway? |
Just about. And there's an Australian playing #13 for France.
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I've been to a dinner with Farr-Jones, seems okay if a little blinkered in his patriotic outlook. You get one or two people like that. |
Nick's a bit of a joke in this country. Not that he wasn't a great player, but he's considered seriously up himself. His surname is of his own invention. He added the Farr to his birthname - Jones. Apart from that, I despise his arch-conservative politics.
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And just those four words condem him as a man worthy of only contempt from me. Throw him out soon or you will never recover. As it is we have a Labour administration more right wing than the Thatcher led Tories that won the 79 election (though not even close to the rabid fools the Tories were by 92). |
This will be the last OT politics in this thread, I promise. The problem with this country is that it's dreadfully conservative, and, tragically, appallingly racist. All dressed up in the so-called easy-going Australian way. And John Howard has pandered to the very worst of Australian phobias.
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Is it reasonable to say you are still holding final judgement on Jones as a coach? |
Well, yes. He hasn't had a full season in charge yet. He inherited a team at the fag-end of last season that had - arguably - played above itself and had lost key players. He has to be given a decent opportunity. I'll start to form an opinion at the end of this season.
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Ireland are a great team to watch these days - when they get it right. If they do get it right they are quite capable of providing an upset on Saturday - but I don't really expect it. |
I saw the Irish hooker - Keith (and his surname has escaped me**) - interviewed on TV tonight. (He was with the Lions, wasn't he?) Seems like quite a charming chap. He thinks - on their day - they can beat the ABs. They also interviewed a couple of the ABs, who said the problem is essentially one of a whole lot of Crusaders players having to adjust to different plays, methods and calls.
**Edit. Keith Wood?
Last edited by finbar on 20-06-2002 at 17:15
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:19
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Ok, Tony Marsh is not French but he is a very good player as is Peter De Villiers. Somewhere, I like the idea of playing for a Union rather than a country, the Rugby is, as far as I can remember, the only major sport allowing foreigners to play in its national team. Of course there are some abuse, but I like this.
And yes, I think the world cup to come is in the mind of the French coaches, as I'am sure the players had Australia in mind before the test match in Argentina.
quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I think it's spot on about the trialling - only six survivors in the starting line up from the side that beat the Wallabies in November? Tamerlin should be fairly happy Ibanez is dropped to the bench though as the new captain, Pelous, is a Toulouse man.
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I don't think Ibanez is deserving to be on the bench, this player has fallen on hard times (mainly because of some stupid journalists looking for a scapegoat) and have managed to come back to the top. His performance against Argentina has not been bad, at least I think so...
About Fabien Pelous, of course I'am glad to see players coming from Toulouse but he is not the only one, the Half-Scrum Michalack is also coming from the Stade Toulousain. Michalack have been disappointing this year after his great final against Montferrand in 2001 but the other Half-Scrum Mignoni have never played well with the French team.
Though he is not coming from Toulouse , François Gelez (Half-Back) has confirmed what I thought about him since the beginning of this season, a very good player who have some troubles when he is under pressure. The final of the French championship has proved he is now able to play well while under pressure.
The question is : will the Aussies be too tough for these two young bloods ?
I hope not.
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19-06-2002 18:12
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