11-06-2002 18:42									#61
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Lincoln wanted ! You're in deep now, Lincoln!

	11-06-2002 19:14									#62
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I already have a thread on this subject. Copycat thread!

	11-06-2002 20:05									#63
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Sorry, I didn't notice.

	11-06-2002 20:22									#64
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Yeah, but your thread doesn't have Giancarlo.

	11-06-2002 20:34									#65
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Lincoln wanted ! You're in deep now, Lincoln!

Actually I did not have a problem with Lincoln doing that but I think this is a bit different. In the case of the Civil War there were clearly definied camps that opposed each other as in most wars. Now however we do not have a clearly defined enemy. Timothy Mc Veigh for example would certainly be called a terrorist. Should he have been given a civilian trial? I agree that in time of real war it is necessary to suspend certain rights and the Constitution allows for that as well.

What we have here is a quagmire that will destroy our liberties as the 'war' progresses without an end.

	11-06-2002 20:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer WRONG, Giancarlo. He is NOT GUILTY until proven otherwise in a court of law. And NOT a military court, either. THAT is the law of the land. What Ashcroft has done is illegal.

I should probably read up on this story more before commenting, but I just can't be bothered right now... from what I can gather from this thread, my worries about Ashcroft are being proven correct.

Giancarlo, I don't care if this guy is the Devil himself, if he's a U.S. Citizen, he has certain rights under the law. Those rights appear to have been violated. If he was stripped of citizenship, and therefore I'd like to know why.

This is what is referred to as a "slippery slope." In the case of this guy, who is accused of a truely dastardly crime, many people would be inclined to turn a blind eye to the violation of his rights. And so the slide downhill begins.

Never, ever, trust a politician. There are always examples of those who genuinely seek to serve their country, but there are so many more who seek personal gain. Hell, even many of those who seek to do good come to believe that the ends justify the means - people like Ashcroft. I don't think the man is evil, but I do think he has a dangerously autocratic mindset.

-Arrian

	11-06-2002 21:16									#67
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Fyi. The precedent on which the current military tribunal system is based on involved 8 Nazi saboteurs in 1943, one of which was a US citizen. The SCUSA ruled at the time that all wartime enemies of the state, regardless of citizenship, were still considered "enemy belligerents".

Based on this tenuous precedent, Padilla can be tried in a military tribunal. On the question of indefinite detention, two recent Federal court rulings (that I dont have handy) ruled against the government in keeping material witnesses indefinitely in criminal investigations, as well as granting access to counsel to persons being held as enemy combatants (in the case of one Yasser Esam Hamdi)

thanks
DAve

	11-06-2002 21:28									#68
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Thanks for the info, Dave.

-Arrian

	11-06-2002 21:43									#69
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I'm totally with Lincoln on this one. It is truly an issue in which the far-right and far-left can bond on. It is scary indeed to consider the implications of the powers being granted to the government in the name of defending the country in this perpetual war against terrorism. Heck, it is conceivable for them to lock me up for writing this "unpatriotic" post. But as long as people are more concerned about buying that new Camaro than anything else, this abandonment of the freedoms that this country is built on will go largely unnoticed.

	11-06-2002 21:49									#70
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"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
William Pitt, beforetheHouse of Commons,
18 November1783

	11-06-2002 21:53									#71
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Good quote Linc

	11-06-2002 22:05									#72
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quote: Heck, it is conceivable for them to lock me up for writing this "unpatriotic" post.

I can relate, but the administration claims that these tribunals were only to be utilized in very special circumstances. Supposedly, this man (padilla) was being utilized by Al-qaeda, because of his citizenship status, for recon and intelligence purposes. His ethnicity and citizenship provided perfect cover for such undertakings. Should he have access to counsel? Definitely. A speedy and fair trial? Yes. But this isn't somebody you release on bail, is it? Especially when he could be considered a valuable source of information.

The same detention of some 1,200 ME immigrants under the same circumstances is entirely a different story. The courts seem to be slowly coming around on this one, thank goodness.

Dave

	11-06-2002 22:11									#73
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that he should be let out on bail, Dave. But to hold him indefinitely, with any future trial being a military tribunal--that is clearly antithetical to American law.

	11-06-2002 22:44									#74
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Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty.
--John F. Kennedy


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--Winston Churchill

	11-06-2002 22:46									#75
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Okay, okay... you people do have a point. But I got a point too and that is national security. Is there a middle area here? I don't want a police state and personally don't want the government snooping in individual privacy. It is hard to generate a conclusion on this issue. So I will say I am unsure. On one hand the guy should thrown in jail without a trial because he had plans to build dirty nukes, but on other hand he should get a trial to maintain the laws set and kept by the American Government since independence.

	11-06-2002 23:11									#76
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quote: don't think anyone is suggesting that he should be let out on bail, Dave. But to hold him indefinitely, with any future trial being a military tribunal--that is clearly antithetical to American law.

The indefinite part i will agree with, and I am uncomfortable with the fact that Padillo may have been held for entirely political reasons relating to the FBI/CIA and the new cabinet.

The military tribunal is a trial, but with a different structure. A defendant does have access to counsel, and can appeal any verdict. However, the big differences are that these, both trial and appeal, are conducted before panels of military personnel only- A panel of five in the trial and three in the appeals. It's questionable whether a terror defendant could get impartiality under such circumstances since so few have been conducted, the last one being 1949. It is a trial, though.

I think one of the main reasons for the tribunal is the use of secret evidence. The government, in any way shape or form, does not want to tip its hand in how intelligence is being gathered against qaeda, and this I can agree with. Keep in mind that the defense does have access to this evidence in discovery, but it is not otherwise made public.

	12-06-2002 00:01									#77
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A few things to note...

First of all, indefinite detention would be legal due to the Patriot Act, if this guy were not a citizen (even then, it is unconstitutional due to a court decision in 2001 - before the Patriot Act - Reno vs. Kim Ho Ma). AFAIK, there is no legal justification whatsover, either through our laws or courts, to indefinitely detain citizens, and certainly no moral justification.

	12-06-2002 00:05									#78
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty. --John F. Kennedy

But if liberty is killed in the process of preserving it, what is the point?

	12-06-2002 00:59									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave Fyi. The precedent on which the current military tribunal system is based on involved 8 Nazi saboteurs in 1943, one of which was a US citizen. The SCUSA ruled at the time that all wartime enemies of the state, regardless of citizenship, were still considered "enemy belligerents". Based on this tenuous precedent, Padilla can be tried in a military tribunal. On the question of indefinite detention, two recent Federal court rulings (that I dont have handy) ruled against the government in keeping material witnesses indefinitely in criminal investigations, as well as granting access to counsel to persons being held as enemy combatants (in the case of one Yasser Esam Hamdi) DAve

The question is "are we legally at war" ?

I dont see anything in the constitution to OK tribunals except for this taken from article II section 2

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury

Since jury isnt defined here maybe its interpreted that a tribunal is a jury ?

Amendments V and VI dont appear to support tribunals

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

As an aside, "treason" is an interesting article of the constitution

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

	12-06-2002 02:22									#80
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Redjon, will you stop going on your anti american crusades... jeez... you hardly know anything about America... I really don't know much either but that isn't the point.

	12-06-2002 02:28									#81
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A lot of people forget, or think it humorous, when it's pointed out that "Freedom isn't free".
Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

	12-06-2002 02:31									#82
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The point of "Freedom isn't free" isn't that you may have to sacrifice liberty to protect it... it's that you may have to sacrifice something like your life for it. Sacrificing freedom in the name of protecting it is oxymoronic.

-Arrian

	12-06-2002 02:33									#83
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That's not true. Show me one "free" military member.
You're ill-informed.

	12-06-2002 02:52									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Redjon, will you stop going on your anti american crusades... jeez... you hardly know anything about America... I really don't know much either but that isn't the point.

America is a democracy, like Britain. I can comment on democracy.

Are Americans who criticise the Bush administration anti-american?

	12-06-2002 02:54									#85
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No just mouthy; because as you've seen elsewhere, very little could be changed.

	12-06-2002 02:59									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand No just mouthy; because as you've seen elsewhere, very little could be changed.

Oh, I admit I'm mouthy

I'm not anti-American though. I'm not against the democratic freedoms America stands for, nor the friendly American citizens.

Criticism of the government is a good thing and a healthy expression of democracy.

	12-06-2002 03:01									#87
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You asked about Americans, RJ. Youuuu wannabe.

	12-06-2002 03:03									#88
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You asked about Americans, RJ. Youuuu wannabe.

]

Bah, you've always wanted to be English and you know it

	12-06-2002 03:04									#89
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I guess it all really hinges on whether or not the current conflict qualifies as a legal war and whether the terrorists can be legally viewed as enemy combatants. AL-queda was associated with the former government of Afghanistan, but it is debatable whether it was an integral part of it. The US arguably waged war (was war formally declared?) on the government of Afghanistan, the Taliban, and vanquished the enemy, who has still not technically surrenedered.

	12-06-2002 08:26									#90
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quote: (was war formally declared?)

Nope, and as such I think there is a possible argument that the military actions were unconstitutional - the use of military force against a nation could be construed as a de facto declaration of war, a power held only by Congress.