12-06-2002 19:22									#121
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He can be convicted in a civilian court just as easily.
One has to wonder if he truly wants a panel of his "peers" to pass judgement though.

	12-06-2002 19:22									#122
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The terrorism thing seems to be largely scaremongering amongst the populace. It's like paedophilia - sure there's a threat, but no-where near as great a threat as we are led to believe.

	12-06-2002 19:25									#123
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand He can be convicted in a civilian court just as easily. One has to wonder if he truly wants a panel of his "peers" to pass judgement though.

The trial will last one day in Civilian court and the jury will have his head. The jury will stay discussing his verdict for two hours probably...

I think he be better off with being held indefinitely without a trial...

	12-06-2002 19:27									#124
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Very few juries will convict based on the government's assertion only.

	12-06-2002 19:35									#125
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Before addressing the question of whether "enemies" can be held indefinitely in "quasi-wars", I wonder who decides on whether someone is an enemy. For US citizens and non-citizens.

If the Bush regime seeks to take this away from the federal judiciary, then the door to the most insane abuse is wide open.

As for a jury... there's jury selection. Then a little history of government framings. Etc. I would not want to make this case of "conspiracy to blast a dirty bomb" as a prosecutor based on "well, we've heard they somehow discussed it...."

	12-06-2002 19:36									#126
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Very few juries will convict based on the government's assertion only.

I think that he'd be better off demanding a trial before a judge rather than a jury trial based on what Tribe says.

	12-06-2002 19:38									#127
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Tribe?

	12-06-2002 19:40									#128
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tribe?

You should have read your article.

	12-06-2002 19:41									#129
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Brain fart!

	12-06-2002 19:47									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I would like to bring this poll up from CNN: Should the U.S. government be allowed to hold 'enemy combatants' without a trial? Yes 77% 107051 votes No 23% 32447 votes Total: 139,498 votes All I can say is: HAHA. Looks like public opinion is in favor of Ashcroft's decision. And this poll was taken from CNN... a news source I dislike.

Oh give me a break. This is a voluntary Web poll, not a reliable poll of random samples. Such polls on the Web always skew heavily conservative, because the working class folks don't have as much access to computers. This not a gauge of true public opinion, there is nothing remotely accurate about the poll.

And again, so what? This is pretty childish. Whether or not public opinion favors something doesn't make it right.

Argue on issues, not lame poll numbers.

	12-06-2002 19:51									#131
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Like you have to have a computer to have an opinion?
I can see the screening of jurors now, all the challenges by the lawyer, wasted on banning non-users of computers.

Yep. The guy will be safe from conviction then.

	12-06-2002 20:03									#132
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Like you have to have a computer to have an opinion? I can see the screening of jurors now, all the challenges by the lawyer, wasted on banning non-users of computers. Yep. The guy will be safe from conviction then.

That's exactly what the CNN poll implies if one takes it as a legitimate sample, as only computer owners are voting in it. It is ergo crap as a public opinion poll, since the opinion of non-computer owners matters just as much.

It's a skewed sample, completely unreliable.

	12-06-2002 20:14									#133
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No, its a sample of computer owners who watch CNN. This is an interesting result, since CNN is regarded by some tv viewers as a "lefty" network I would guess this poll is also primarily one of more liberal viewers.

	12-06-2002 20:18									#134
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CNN is leftist.

And 100,000 votes for yes is enough for me to make up my mind.

CNN does an okay job when it came to those percentages because that is pretty much the opinion of the center, and center-left.

quote: Such polls on the Web always skew heavily conservative, because the working class folks don't have as much access to computers.

What country are you living in? Somalia? Because anybody can walk right into a internet cafe and get access to computers paying for several hours which costs almost nothing.

And lets face it America for the most part supports the Bush adminstration and its decisions overwhelmingly.

	12-06-2002 20:18									#135
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH No, its a sample of computer owners who watch CNN. This is an interesting result, since CNN is regarded by some tv viewers as a "lefty" network I would guess this poll is also primarily one of more liberal viewers.

No, it's a sample of computer owners who visit the CNN Web site. They are not necessarily television viewers.

	12-06-2002 20:24									#136
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Fine, but its not "completely unreliable".

	12-06-2002 20:29									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo CNN is leftist. And 100,000 votes for yes is enough for me to make up my mind.

Ok, you admit to being swayed by polls. So we know you have a weak mind. 100,000 votes out of 250+ million people, and not a random sample. Duh.

quote: CNN does an okay job when it came to those percentages because that is pretty much the opinion of the center, and center-left.

No, it's only the opinion of people choosing to participate in the poll on the Web. There is no way of ever determining the political bents of those participating.

It's an inaccurate "snapshot" poll. It has no validity in determining actual public opinion.

quote: What country are you living in? Somalia? Because anybody can walk right into a internet cafe and get access to computers paying for several hours which costs almost nothing.

Huh? Ok, what Joe Schmoe factory worker in the Midwest is going to spend is time in an internet Cafe on cnn.com? Or an urban single mother?

You're basically saying that only the opinions of the middle- and upper-class matters in America. Well, that is quite a Republican attitude...

Common knowledge: In order for a poll to be an accurate representation of public opinion, it has to be a random sample. Period. This is not a random sample, ergo it is not an accurate poll.

	12-06-2002 20:30									#138
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Fine, but its not "completely unreliable".

It is completely unreliable as a guage of national public opinion.

It is only reliable as a guage of the opinions of 100,000 people who have access to computers who visited the CNN.com web site and decided to vote in the poll.

Even then, it is not reliable, as all one has to do to vote multiple times in the poll is move to a different computer. That makes it even more unreliable.

	12-06-2002 20:31									#139
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Ugh, and it keeps and going and going and going, nothing stops the energizer bunny...

I feel America is backing Bush overwhelmingly and I still think that is the way it is.

quote: You're basically saying that only the opinions of the middle- and upper-class matters in America. Well, that is quite a Republican attitude...

ERR Wrong. I never said that. A republican attitude? How about you neglecting the people a tax cut? Now that is the democrat attitude...

	12-06-2002 20:34									#140
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Giancarlo: When did I ever "neglect" the people a tax cut? You're assuming I believe something that I've never stated here. For all you know, I could be 100% in favor of the tax cuts.

And what does a tax cut have to do with the accuracy of this CNN poll?

You're just thrashing about aimlessly now.

	12-06-2002 20:41									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It is completely unreliable as a guage of national public opinion.

I agree, but then so are all polls on "national public opinion". Its ludicrous to believe that sample sizes of 500->1000->50,000 (and I've never seen one that size anyway) are representative of 280M people in such a diverse country as the USA.

quote: Even then, it is not reliable, as all one has to do to vote multiple times in the poll is move to a different computer. That makes it even more unreliable.

I'm sure it happens but would you bother? I wouldnt and I dont think many others would either.

	12-06-2002 20:59									#142
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I agree, but then so are all polls on "national public opinion". Its ludicrous to believe that sample sizes of 500->1000->50,000 (and I've never seen one that size anyway) are representative of 280M people in such a diverse country as the USA.

Actually, such polls, when the proper methods are employed, tend to be very accurate in guaging opinion. Look at the Zogby presidential poll in 2000. The day before the Election, it predicted Gore - 49%, Bush - 48%. It was right on the money. That's because they used a good random sample of not elligible voters, but likely voters, based on past voting history.

For a poll to guage national opinion accurately, it merely needs a completely random sample. If the sample is truly random, even a 600-person poll can produce a pretty accurate result. Of course, they all have their percentage of error, and the more you poll, the lower that percentage goes.

But to compare a voluntary Web poll's accuracy to a random sample is apples and oranges. A random sample is, indeed, far more accurate, even if it isn't 100%.

quote: I'm sure it happens but would you bother? I wouldnt and I dont think many others would either.

You'd be surprised at how far people would go to express their political opinions...

	12-06-2002 22:31									#143
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In the case of the presidential election there was no biased wording in the poll to complicate the choice and the choices were limited (in more ways than one). Even so the "margin for error" on such small samples is usually plus and minus 3-4% which meant that they actually predicted Gore 45-53% and Bush 44-52% which is not really a prediction at all.

The CNN poll