13-06-2002 01:51									#31
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God Bless the Fatherland.

	13-06-2002 02:00									#32
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Hmm, I believe Germany to be in the right. If the US government gives a guarantee they won't execute him, then the evidence should be handed over.

	13-06-2002 02:27									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Our duty to human rights is a tad more important to us than our duty to your truth.

Fair enough. I sympathize with Germany's position, as I can understand the principle behind their opposition of the death penalty. However, particularly because of the nature of this case, Germany's refusal to hand over the evidence, long after it made it's point vis-a-vis the death penalty, is IMO pretty unfriendly.

-Arrian

	13-06-2002 02:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Our duty to human rights is a tad more important to us than our duty to your truth.

"you truth"? what's that supposed to mean? that we would lie to convict this person?

hmmm, on second thought with ashcroft anything is possible

	13-06-2002 03:11									#35
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As a matter of fact, there's no such thing as "our duty to truth". Our constitution's first article is about human rights, not about property and imperialism.

What the US wants is irrelevant if it's connected with human rights violation in the eyes of an enlightened country/continent even.

Besides, it's funny how we can actually have information the almighty and omnipresent US don't have

	13-06-2002 03:45									#36
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Considering the fact, that Schroeder has gotten pretty unpopular here, promising "unlimited solidarity to the US" (guess "limited" would be ok), and the fact that he wants to be re-elected this year, I do not wonder why he tries to show that he has some balls, even more since he's supported by constitution and law.

In the US the presidents do even worse things, just to be re-elected .

	13-06-2002 03:48									#37
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Was zur Hölle ist ein Hundsfott?

	13-06-2002 04:04									#38
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Ein feiger, niederträchtiger Kerl.

	13-06-2002 04:05									#39
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So hypothetically speaking, if this man had committed mass murders in Germany as well , and had plans for further acts of terrorism in Germany, would Germany be justified withholding evidence that would condemn this man in the US if doing so might mean letting the man free to kill again?

I take it that the EU now repudiates the Nuremberg trials and would hinder attempts by Israel to extradite Nazis war criminals if the opportunity came up?

The irony here is that the Europeans drove the Jews out of Europe, and now they're fighting for their lives. The US is supporting them and suffering for it. The ultimate offenders sit in their comfy chairs and shake their heads over the whole mess, but are unwilling to lift a finger to help their victims while endlessly mouthing platitudes of humanitarianism. Truly Kafka is alive and well in Europe.

	13-06-2002 04:21									#40
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All Germany is doing is hindering prosecution and withholding evidence to prevent the conviction of a terrorist... jeez, how pathetic. And some of you people actually support preventing justice of being passed? How disgusting.

	13-06-2002 04:27									#41
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" I take it that the EU now repudiates the Nuremberg trials and would hinder attempts by Israel to extradite Nazis war criminals if the opportunity came up?"

I am interested in hearing an answer to this as well.

If those are the laws, then fine. However, it would be a shame to see those laws applied unevenly.

	13-06-2002 04:39									#42
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I truly wonder what Germany would do if they had been subjected to such a catastrophic attack. The closest thing that I can recall was the Munich Olympic massacres. None of the terrorists survived. I think it was about at this time that a number of German terrorists were mysteriously found hung in their cells. German authorities claimed it was spontaneous mass suicide. Yeah, we used to have that problem down South.

	13-06-2002 06:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo All Germany is doing is hindering prosecution and withholding evidence to prevent the conviction of a terrorist... jeez, how pathetic. And some of you people actually support preventing justice of being passed? How disgusting.

No, they are obeying their own laws.

What I find disgusting is the self-righteousness in all your posts.

	13-06-2002 07:00									#44
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I think that it's yet another pathetic european ego-centric attempt to force their own morals onto others.

There are many different civilizations in the world, and eurocoms have no right to force their culture and morals on america.

And they did force it, as they put it as a condition of a matter not relating to german law.

What next, refusal of EC to sell condomes to America unless they allow gay marraige?

The real issue here is upholding international laws and agreements - such as sharing evidence against dangerous terrorists.

The death penatly is not germany's bussiness.

In any case - they could protest if he had gotten the DP. However he didn't yet.

What they are doing is obstructing justice, because they are in moral disagreement with the American penal law.

That's terribly ethno-centric of them. But then again, that's what the EC stands for - Ethno-Centric.

	13-06-2002 07:04									#45
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Yes, that's why the geopolitical region is usually referred to as the EU.

Siro, they aren't "forcing" their morals on anybody else; they have the right to decide to hand over evidence or not, and they have the right to ask that certain conditions be met before they do so.

I'm allowed to decide not to sell you a gun if I think you might not use it responsibly.

	13-06-2002 07:06									#46
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I think that it is funny that people seem to be making a bigger deal over this decision than the US did.

	13-06-2002 07:31									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Good for Germany.

earth to moron? Is anybody home? Helloooo?

Witholding intel information about where he was and who he met before 9/11. Not knowing what the terrorists are up to puts people like me and you in danger.

Apparently you dont care. So maybe you would be better off dead?

Call my comments harsh, whatever you want. But seeing somebody from NY of all places, take such counter-productive and demeaning positions on the war on terror seems incredibly stupid.

Our lives are in danger here. And all you can do is continue to play the role of apoligist for terrorism.

	13-06-2002 07:35									#48
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Do you know what apologist means?

	13-06-2002 07:36									#49
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Danger schmanger. Last year you had a 15 times greater chance of being killed by an automobile as by a terrorist.

	13-06-2002 07:40									#50
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so what.

Should I have to explain how stupid your comparison of car accidents and terrorism is?

	13-06-2002 07:43									#51
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last time i checked drivers dont go out of there way to kill as many pedestrians as possible. But enlighten me, I dont see you can compare the danger of highways and interstates to that of intentional premeditated terrorist attacks, besides i need a good laugh to go with the beer.

	13-06-2002 07:45									#52
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Yes. Please do.

Then explain to me why it's okay to spend a few dozen billion dollars on security and give up your civil liberties in the process when paying the same amount to enforce seat belt laws would probably go much further.

Then explain to me how Boris was being an apologist for terrorism instead of, possibly, an apologist for the German government.

	13-06-2002 07:46									#53
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faded, that still doesn't mean anything. The danger you as an individual face from terrorists is minute.

EDIT: and I for one have got better things to be afreaid of...

	13-06-2002 08:00									#54
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"Then explain to me why it's okay to spend a few dozen billion dollars on security and give up your civil liberties in the process when paying the same amount to enforce seat belt laws would probably go much further. "

We do enforce seatbelt laws. As much as any other western nation. However, when going to leeds I get the same impression I do here in Racine. The police dont really care...and its up to the individual really.

"Then explain to me how Boris was being an apologist for terrorism instead of, possibly, an apologist for the German government."

The bigger picture. I mean his threads seem typical of making a joke out of the whole war on terror thing.

"faded, that still doesn't mean anything. The danger you as an individual face from terrorists is minute. "

So we should do nothing about it? Just let the dirtbags sack a few more skyscrapers? Your the one who isnt making any sense. You assume civil liberties have somehow been lost. Thats a load of BS. No civil liberties have been lost. I can still criticize bush, Boris can. NY times can. A few conveniances have been lost. I for one do not consider being scanned 3 to 4 times for weapons before I bored an airplane to be a lose of civil liberty. Its god damn common sense.

	13-06-2002 08:01									#55
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doh cant edit that mispell...wth

	13-06-2002 08:21									#56
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quote: The bigger picture. I mean his threads seem typical of making a joke out of the whole war on terror thing

If he was an apologist for terrorism then he'd be posting things defending the terrorists' goals and the means they use to accomplish them.

i.e. "The terrorists were given a mission from Allah they couldn't ignore", etc.

	13-06-2002 08:29									#57
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Siro, I wish the US wouldn't impose their morals on the rest of the world.

	13-06-2002 08:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "Then explain to me how Boris was being an apologist for terrorism instead of, possibly, an apologist for the German government." The bigger picture. I mean his threads seem typical of making a joke out of the whole war on terror thing.

When have I ever made a joke about terrorism? F*ck you.

I am an opponent of the death penalty, and I was showing how I thought Germany was doing right by taking a stand for what it valued, even in the face of U.S. pressure to disregard law to fight terrorism.

None of the evidence Germany is withholding would have changed what happened on September 11th.

And don't you dare accuse me of taking terrorism lightly. I can still get sick when I remember watching the World Trade Center collapsing outside my office window, or walking home through dust clouds. Bringing out the tired, lame "well, if you don't support everything the administration does, you must support terrorists" line is not only offensive, its unAmerican.

I have never once made a thread joking about terrorism, and the assertion is damned low. Maybe you should stop and actually respect different opinions than yours rather than coming up with the sleaziest accusations you can think of.

	13-06-2002 12:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory earth to moron? Is anybody home? Helloooo? Witholding intel information about where he was and who he met before 9/11. Not knowing what the terrorists are up to puts people like me and you in danger. Apparently you dont care. So maybe you would be better off dead? Call my comments harsh, whatever you want. But seeing somebody from NY of all places, take such counter-productive and demeaning positions on the war on terror seems incredibly stupid. Our lives are in danger here. And all you can do is continue to play the role of apoligist for terrorism.

Well, the U.S. already has the info, which is why they know they want to use it at trial. They key issue here is whether someone from Germany is going to come to court in the U.S. and testify about the validity of the information. Without this, it's just hearsay in a U.S. court. So no one is going to die because a terrorist act is not stopped with this info. It's all about the death penalty. I'm against the DP generally, but I do see it's value in the military justice system and for terrorism and espionage.

	13-06-2002 12:54									#60
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Zuerst: Hundsfott heißt ein bißchen mehr....

Strangelove:

"So hypothetically speaking, if..."

Yes.

"I take it that the EU now repudiates the Nuremberg trials"

There are pending judicial help requests from the Nuremberg war crimes court ?

"and would hinder attempts by Israel to extradite Nazis war criminals if the opportunity came up?"

If Israel seeks the DP, yes.

"The irony here is that the Europeans drove the Jews out of Europe, and now they're fighting for their lives."

You really should go back and love your bomb.

"I think it was about at this time that a number of German terrorists were mysteriously found hung in their cells. "

That was after the failure of the Schleyer/Mogadishu attempts to force their release, 5 years later.