14-06-2002 04:40									#91
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quote: In their minds justice is not served by killing a prisoner, so why should they aid a miscarriage of justice?

It's different justice.

They have a disagreement with the American penal code.

Justice is not about penal codes. Justice is about getting the truth to come out and punishing the responsible.

Just because I disagree with the singapoure penal code, which punishes vandalism by cane beating, doesn't mean that I will work to obstruct the singapoure justice system.

If I will, that will be ethno-centric of me.

quote: It's perfectly reasonable.

If you thought about it for half a minute you might see the difference that crops up when you attempt to present the situation in this way.

quote: they require that this specific evidence not be used to help put someone to death.

They require Americans to change their moral code in this case, as a pre-condition for helping reach justice.

quote: Germany doesn't require that all dp cases in the US stop before they hand over evidence

The extent doesn't matter - it's the same principle.

quote: By facilitating the execution of a prisoner, they become complicit, both morally and legally in the death of that prisoner. Their moral stance is that the dp is wrong. Why should they help someone do something they believe is wrong?

Hmm... because they are comitted to the truth and justice?

They become a complicit in the conviction of that prisoner. The decision of whether to execute him is solely American.

The point is that they are willing to prevent justice being done, to assure that their own moral code will be upheld.

	14-06-2002 04:46									#92
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Siro, I'm assuming that you'll be behingd Kissinger's extradition to the ICC then, right?

	14-06-2002 04:49									#93
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BeBro:

My mom was born in a refugee camp near Berlin in 1949 in a communist controlled area. My grandparents and their children escaped the communists and fled to America in 1958.

What's your point?

	14-06-2002 04:53									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Sava What's your point?

That was exactly my thought about your previous post

	14-06-2002 04:55									#95
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My point is the US liberated Germany from the Nazis, and kept the Western part out of control of the communists. And now, Germany seems to have forgotten the sacrifice the American soldiers made.

	14-06-2002 05:00									#97
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No, we haven´t forgotten that. But we can´t break simply our constitution from one day to another. And the official reaction from the US seems much cooler, so I don´t understand the whining here...

	14-06-2002 05:01									#98
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KH, how dare you...

	14-06-2002 05:02									#99
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Seriously though, I don't know sh!t about this subject. I'm just talking out of my ass again.

	14-06-2002 05:06									#100
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Germany should break its own laws and bend over for everything the U.S. wants because 60 years ago we prevented a communist takeover?



In that case, the U.S. should be cowtowing to French demands for their help in the American Revolution. Such brilliant logic.

	14-06-2002 05:50									#101
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KH - If Kissinger comitted crimes against the german people and is brought to trial in germany (if they succeed to do that) then, i'd support giving any needed evidence.

I'd support the US right to decide not to extrodite him. But that at least would be a honest "screw you".

Germany is "We'll extrodite him only if you promise not to hurt him".

Furthermore, the ICC is an international court , right?

I object to it, because I don't believe that there can be an impartial international authority. It's gonna end up the same political citrcus the UN is.

Therefore, it's better to admit that there can't be fully impartial trial, and try people in states for crimes comitted against them.

Milosevic should have been trialed in yugoslavia (what's left of it) imo.

	14-06-2002 06:02									#102
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And trials for those involved in terrorist plots against the US will be fair and impartial? Dream on, Siro...

If the Canadian government was petitioned to turn over evidence that would be used to convict and execute a woman in Nigeria of adultery then I'd be tremendously pissed off if we did it.

This isn't forcing your morality down somebody else's throat; it's making moral decisions about your own actions. You don't help people do things that you think are morally wrong.

	14-06-2002 06:47									#103
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no Boris, they should do the right thing and hand over evidence that will help prove that guy is a dirty terrorist.

It's my understanding that friends do favors for each other. The US definitely did Germany a favor in defeating communism. That was only a little over 10 years ago. I don't blame you for not understanding that. Only a few people seem to have an understanding of honor.

	14-06-2002 06:57									#104
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BeFro,

quote: And except that a war has nothing to do with normal law that is used during peace time. Or are you seriously saying that death penalty is the same as death in combat action during war time, when two sides use armed forces?

Yes there is a difference between war and peace time laws but the morality behind them is the same. In war the enemy is killed to protect the society. Killing is seen as a justification because of the greater good that it brings to society.

In peace time there is the exact same justification made by use of the death penalty.

If a society views the death penalty as 'barbaric' then they should not engage in war, and they certainly should not kill a single person unless that particular person is trying to kill them. Killing people is either morally justified or not. I respect pacifists because they are at lest consistant. I also respect societies that apply the death penalty fairly. But calling it barbaric on one hand and not on the other is hypocrisy.

	14-06-2002 07:02									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion How long has it been since we killed people in a war anyway? 60 years?

Don't forget about those home grown terrorists I mentioned above. Simultaneous suicides? Really?


Let's just suppose that we waived the death penalty for the terrorists we catch. That means that they'll be in jail indefinitely, which will incite further terrorist attacks probably involving hostage taking. I wonder what your people will say should this group of terrorist be subsequently found all hanging in their cells?

How much will Americans have to endure to resolve the little problem your country left us with 47 years ago?

	14-06-2002 07:06									#106
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No it isn't, Lincoln.

We have the ability to imprison murderers indefinitely. By choosing a more lethal option than necessary we become murderers. During wartime it is imposible to defend against masses of armed men by attempting to apprehend them as we apprehend criminals, therefore the killing that takes place becomes self-defense.

	14-06-2002 07:08									#107
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The justification is the same. I used to work as a prison guard. The option of life imprisonment endangers the lives of both the fellow prisoners and the guards, let alone the public if he escapes.

	14-06-2002 07:14									#108
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Strangelove, did you just turn the logic switch in your brain off?

Firstly, what problem are you referring to? 47 years ago is 1955. What did East Germany do in 1955 that caused terrorists to attack the US in 2001?

Seondly, the notion that imprisoning Al Qaeda terrorists will cause Al Qaeda to attack the US while executing them won't is just plain laughable...

	14-06-2002 07:33									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The justification is the same. I used to work as a prison guard. The option of life imprisonment endangers the lives of both the fellow prisoners and the guards, let alone the public if he escapes.

How many murders of prisoners and prison guards take place in any given year? How many of these were committed by those who were already in jail for a capital crime? The safety of the prisoners, the guards and the general public can all be reasonably assured.

The death penalty would not be even close to effective at doing anything about the problem of prison violence unless it were applied wholesale...

	14-06-2002 07:39									#110
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Prisoners are constantly killed in prison. It ususally is just local news. I worked at the Utah State prison for 4 years and there were several people killed when I was there. That is pretty typical. The lifers have nothing to lose so the only option is to confine them in what they call a strip cell which is a concrete hole where the inmate is left naked so that he cannot use anything as a weapon on himself or on a guard or medical officer etc. That to me is cruel and unusual punishment.

	14-06-2002 07:40									#111
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RIght, I know it happens and that prison is a relatively dangerous place, compared to outside world, but I don't think that killing murderers instead of sending them to jail will end up saving enough lives to justify it.

	14-06-2002 07:43									#112
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Oh well. I'll have to sleep on that idea. See you later...

	14-06-2002 07:50									#113
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Bye. Just as a last note, in Canada the number of murders per annum is around the 500 mark, while the number of inmates murdered is usually ~4 per year and it's been 15 years since a guard was murdered in the line of duty. This suggests to me that imprisonment is a fairly effective safety system for all involved...

	14-06-2002 08:41									#114
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Funny discussion. As already said by other posters this is due to a rule in our constitution. Should we simply abandon our constitution (and EU law)? Would another country (let´s say, the US ) do the same? Or does someone prefer a Germany that has no problem with breaking his own laws? Last time we did that on a large scale was between 33 - 45, the results weren´t really great, so I think our constitution is nothing to play around with easily...

As Dino and I stated before only a few are actually making a big deal out of this. Those who want to turn this into a moral crusade and those who want to just argue. those actually involved and those with enough sense to know better have moved on.

	14-06-2002 09:05									#115
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Bye. Just as a last note, in Canada the number of murders per annum is around the 500 mark, while the number of inmates murdered is usually ~4 per year and it's been 15 years since a guard was murdered in the line of duty. This suggests to me that imprisonment is a fairly effective safety system for all involved...

right and 60% of the murders are commited by people who have been released from prison. The US is even worse they have a 80% repeat offence rate with the convicts they release.

	14-06-2002 09:18									#116
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quote: Originally posted by markusf right and 60% of the murders are commited by people who have been released from prison. The US is even worse they have a 80% repeat offence rate with the convicts they release.

The recidivist murder rate is astonishingly low, markus. That's because we imprison our murderers for something like 3 times as long as the US does, on average...

Unless you were suggesting that we apply the death penalty to thieves as well?

	14-06-2002 09:48									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln If a society views the death penalty as 'barbaric' then they should not engage in war, and they certainly should not kill a single person unless that particular person is trying to kill them. Killing people is either morally justified or not. I respect pacifists because they are at lest consistant. I also respect societies that apply the death penalty fairly. But calling it barbaric on one hand and not on the other is hypocrisy.

Good point. I wholly agree.

As to pacifists, I say we draft them anyway, but station them between the enemy and our troops to protect the enemy from us and us from the enemy. The pacifists can hand out flowers to both sides and call for peace. Perhaps they can actually do some good.

Pacifists should be actively seeking peace, and not be cowards hiding behind idealist bullsh*t mumbo-jumbo.

	14-06-2002 09:48									#118
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Unless you were suggesting that we apply the death penalty to thieves as well?

There's no need to go that far. Severing one of thier hands from thier body will be enough.

	14-06-2002 13:45									#119
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You guys seem to think killing another man is the only way to achieve justice.

Do you honestly think there's no such thing as laws, courts and prisons in Germany?

Silly kids.

	14-06-2002 18:25									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Sava no Boris, they should do the right thing and hand over evidence that will help prove that guy is a dirty terrorist.

First, the U.S. should do the right thing and drop the pursuit of the death penalty in this case. That's all the U.S. needs to do, and then the evidence is ours. You're not understanding that Germany isn't witholding the evidence unconditionally. All they need is a guarantee the death penalty won't be used.

quote: It's my understanding that friends do favors for each other.

If within the bounds of the law, fine. But mobsters do favors for each other, too. It would be against German law to hand over the evidence. Is this that hard for you to comprehend?

quote: The US definitely did Germany a favor in defeating communism.

The U.S. did not defeat communism, Communism defeated communism.

quote: That was only a little over 10 years ago. I don't blame you for not understanding that. Only a few people seem to have an understanding of honor.

Breaking your own laws to help the U.S. execute someone is not honorable. In fact, executing people isn't honorable. You have a strange concept of honor.

And considering the U.S. slapped steel tariffs on the EU while at the same time asking for support against Afghanistan (which, btw, Germany gave whole-heartedly), what does the U.S. know about honor, or doing favor for friends? Utter hypocrisy.

Oh, and then there's the U.S. refusal to allow their citizens to be tried for war crimes at the Hague. Why should a European country give a damn about the U.S. justice system, if the U.S. doesn't give a damn about theirs?

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