14-06-2002 18:56									#121
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Lincoln: I agree. I am a pacifist, i believe no one deserves to die for any reason and that killing in war is murder.

	14-06-2002 20:23									#122
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Civman and Ecthelion, If killing even in war is murder, what do you do if you are attacked as a nation? Surrender?

	14-06-2002 20:24									#123
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No, fight. And, if necessary, kill. I dídn't know that would make for that much of a question?

	14-06-2002 21:04									#124
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And trials for those involved in terrorist plots against the US will be fair and impartial? Dream on, Siro...

Why not?

What interest does the public has convicting an innocent person?

You wouldn't think the Israeli court would do justice to Nazi war criminals, yet after his appeal, Demyaniuk was released because the judges weren't 100% sure.

quote: If the Canadian government was petitioned to turn over evidence that would be used to convict and execute a woman in Nigeria of adultery then I'd be tremendously pissed off if we did it.

You'd be pissed because there are people who have a different moral code than you. That's ethno-centricity.

quote: This isn't forcing your morality down somebody else's throat; it's making moral decisions about your own actions. You don't help people do things that you think are morally wrong.

I do not think that a fair trial is morally wrong.

Whether I agree with the punishment given to the convict, is another thing, but it's not my culture.

	14-06-2002 21:06									#125
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For the record - it's German law and they should follow their own laws.

However, I'm disappointed that Europe is as colonial with it's morals as ever.

	14-06-2002 21:08									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion You guys seem to think killing another man is the only way to achieve justice.

Not at all.

I think that proper trial with needed evidence is the only way to achieve justice.

But I don't go pushing my nose in other people's penal laws.

If America had a maximum penalty of tarring and feathering people... or something silly like that, it would still be justice because it's what they consider proper punishment.

quote: Do you honestly think there's no such thing as laws, courts and prisons in Germany?

What? Where?

	14-06-2002 21:10									#127
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So should countries give judicial aid to other countries without any scrutiny as to what the consequences will be ?
If not, what scrutiny can be applied that is not, in your terms, "ethnocentric" ?

	15-06-2002 03:32									#128
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If you US guys had decent laws that actually accord to human rights, and thus could guarantee a decent process that wouldn't be followed by a n execution, the evidence would be there quicker than your president could eat a brezel (this is the correct spelling). But since you choose to kill people that have been in your hands for a long time (no comparison to killing in war), you'll have to get away without it.

	15-06-2002 04:34									#129
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The recidivist murder rate is astonishingly low, markus. That's because we imprison our murderers for something like 3 times as long as the US does, on average... Unless you were suggesting that we apply the death penalty to thieves as well?

So 20% of murders are commited by excons within 3 years of thier release?

Then how come we are always hearing about murders getting 15 years and then being released after 3 for good behavior? As far as i know our criminals only spend a fraction of the time in jail as they do in the us..

	15-06-2002 04:56									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Roland So should countries give judicial aid to other countries without any scrutiny as to what the consequences will be ?

Assuming that their justice system is fair - yes.

And assuming that their penal system is within reason and accepted morals. And it is accepted in the world, that the DP is a legitimate punishment.

quote: If not, what scrutiny can be applied that is not, in your terms, "ethnocentric" ?

If for instance you know that they won't really get fair trial.

And if the penalty is completely unaccepted, such as death by violent bees or being fed to animals.

That would be just uselessly cruel. You can kill a person using a lethal shot. There's no reason to abuse him.

.

A DP serves the purpose of prevention of further crimes by that person, and it is supposed to broadcast a message of what is comletely unacceptable.

I support the DP for very violent crimes, or a great number of repetition of crimes. Let's say a serial rapist, that refused to get help. Or a serial killer. Or a very violent killer.

Basically there are three possibles conditions for DP:

1) The crime was very very cruel and sadistic.
2) The crime rids a person of his life (whether actually by death or irrepairable emotional / physical trauma) and was done with malicious thought, unprovoked.
3) A non violent serious crime which was repeated.

Now obviously, there are also rules which limit this.

Let's take rape for example.

It fits in category 2, and can sometimes fit 1 and 3.

IMO, people who feel that they can't control their sexual drive should be elligible for free medicine and psychiatric care, to prevent rape. If the care doesn't work properly, then the rapist shouldn't get DP.

However, if the person refused to accept help, after discovering his problem, then he knowingly subjected people to the danger of him losing control, and then he raped, then he should get DP.

	15-06-2002 07:40									#131
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quote: You'd be pissed because there are people who have a different moral code than you. That's ethno-centricity

Siro, that's ridiculous.

Right now I'm just trying to figure out if this is some sort of complex troll that's going to eventually be tied in to the ME or if you actually believe the crap you're currently spouting.

	15-06-2002 08:22									#132
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btw, don't tell him I told you , but Dalgetti adores you

	15-06-2002 08:27									#133
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That's lovely.

I've been looking for a tender young Israeli bottom to boink...

	15-06-2002 08:29									#134
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's lovely. I've been looking for a tender young Israeli bottom to boink...

I have first dibs.