13-06-2002 08:59									#61
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Cromwell was a jerk, can't really think of him as someone to admire.

	13-06-2002 09:02									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Wow! I didn't know El Awrence would be one to support religious fundamentalists and those who comitt genocide!

Leaving aside his depredations in Ireland, He did a lot of good in England.

	13-06-2002 09:07									#63
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I forgot to list a few of the revolutionaries I respect:

The Founding Fathers of the US
Adam Smith
Einstein
Darwin

	13-06-2002 09:09									#64
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Galileo

	13-06-2002 09:47									#65
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Ray Kroc? You nuts? He was a tremendous jerk and was more a case of right place, right time than any revolutonary genius. Now Morita, you can make an argument for, but not Kroc.

And oh yes, dourly serious, Stefu is correct with regards to the more standard vareity of revolutonaries. Although I'm curious how much running-doggedness is steeped in the Finns.

	13-06-2002 09:57									#66
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Pierre Proudhon
Adam Smith(I know he is the father of capitalism, but I do agree with many things he advocated)

	13-06-2002 09:57									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Thomas Jefferson, [Sam Adams], John Adams, Thomas Payne, Benjamin Franklin and George Washington.

Gandhi
Curizon Aquino
Solidarity
Martin Luther
Simon Bolivar
Ataturk
The Chinese students in 1989--esp. the kid who stood in front of the line of tanks.

	13-06-2002 10:03									#68
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And I gotta include some peaceful revolutionaries, like Ghandi and Tolstoy.

	13-06-2002 10:06									#69
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Jesus, I'm so f***ing tired. I mispelled all of the words in my last sentence before I edited them.

	13-06-2002 13:27									#70
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Despite the incredibly stupid comment made above it I do agree with axi that Babeuf is probably one of the best revolutionaries.

Babeuf's Defense is one of the best discourses on freedom of the people and points out how revolutions can just turn into another form of oppression

	13-06-2002 13:39									#71
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Say what you want about Adam Smith but calling him a revolutionary is surely streching it too far.

After last night I'm also thinking Sam Adams. Not that I know much more about him than he being the cousin of John Adams but since there's a beer named after him he must be a great guy!

	13-06-2002 16:30									#72
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Short funny answer Couter-revolutionaries with an if*, longer serious answer people who have a good idea of how to set up a better government than the one they are replacing. No single great leaders, but broader based groups who get along well enough with each other not to jump into a civil war immediately after the Ancien Regime is out of the way.


* If they are overthrowing commie dictators.


edit: format

	13-06-2002 16:41									#73
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Lenin and Trotsky. Ooooooh

	13-06-2002 16:48									#74
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I'm with Speer on the Grachi brothers. They're just so damn dramatic. I wish someone'd make a movie about them. It's got everything. Brotherly love, hatred between married family members (Scaevola and Graachi) loyalty, betrayal, suicide...

Most definately like them for that (whether what they did helped? Well, they failed, so it's kinda hard to say that)

	13-06-2002 17:26									#75
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But the French Revolution in Europe was a failure that ended in a mindless blood-fest orgy. It unleashed many new ideals though for other European leaders to strive for. But the French Revolution in of itself, failed.

"mindless blood-fest orgy" ? Damn ...

Our "Revolution" ended when Napoleon self-proclamed Emperor of France.

Not a success, yes. Because of other European countries who attacked us & Napoleon 1er.

But it wasn't a total failure just a partial. But some of the most interesting idea (maybe too utopic) are gone with the wind.

---

	13-06-2002 17:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Right -- it was the slaves' fault that those Frenchie bastards would not give up the island peacefully. But seriously, you are right -- the Hatian Revolution was one of the more violent revolutions in the Western Hemisphere. But still it was successful -- and can you really call it genocide? Are you certain there were no French civilians who were allowed to remain on the island under the new government?

Successfull ? Not a long term. Most of our "out-_of-sea territories" (old settlement) are far more wealthier than Hatia.

	13-06-2002 17:45									#77
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quote: I forgot to list a few of the revolutionaries I respect: The Founding Fathers of the US Adam Smith Einstein Darwin

quote: Gandhi Curizon Aquino Solidarity Martin Luther Simon Bolivar Ataturk The Chinese students in 1989--esp. the kid who stood in front of the line of tanks.

You see DaShi.... This is the sort of list that smells fishy to me. The people on those lists have one common element: they are acceptable by the US "system of values". Regarding how much revolutionary they were, see Ataturk side by side with Martin Luther King.

My case rests.

	13-06-2002 18:12									#78
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But I think you'll agree with me that he wasn't a bad guy , axi.

	13-06-2002 18:26									#79
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Who Ataturk? He commited genocide for crying out loud!

	13-06-2002 18:48									#80
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Jesus Christ is definitely another revolutionary I respect.


Among the American founding fathers I have most respect for, are George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine.

	13-06-2002 18:54									#81
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See what I said?

And what have they that makes them so respectable that Marat or Gambetta or Jose Marti or Simon Bolivar or Subcommandante Marcos or Abdullah Ocalan do not have?

	13-06-2002 19:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by axi See what I said? And what have they that makes them so respectable that Marat or Gambetta or Jose Marti or Simon Bolivar or Subcommandante Marcos or Abdullah Ocalan do not have?

I'm proud of my own country's heritage -- so sue me.

Now buzz off.

	13-06-2002 20:16									#83
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Cromwell did a lot in England... he presented to the world the first 'Constitutional' in the best style of the French third Republic, 300 years earlier and probably laid the foundations for legislative democracy.

After death, that is.

	13-06-2002 21:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Adam Smith Einstein Darwin

Einstein was was a socialist. The other two, however, laid the theoretical foundations for Marxism. Glad to see you're coming of to the light side of the force.

	13-06-2002 21:31									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler esp. the kid who stood in front of the line of tanks.

That wasn't a kid. He was a worker.

	13-06-2002 21:33									#86
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Our "Revolution" ended when Napoleon self-proclamed Emperor of France.

No it didn't, it changed. Napoleon carried forward the revolution to every place he conquered, by displacing the ancien regime and replacing it with a new bourgeois one. The French revolution ended at Waterloo.

	13-06-2002 21:39									#87
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Axi, you're a chump. There's no logical connection that listing some great American revolutionaries somehow denegrates revolutionaries in other countries. The thread is about ones people personally admire, not which ones are the best at exclusion of all others. Take a chill pill and stop trolling.

	13-06-2002 22:23									#88
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Einstein was was a socialist. The other two, however, laid the theoretical foundations for Marxism.

No one is perfect.

	13-06-2002 22:55									#89
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Well i mush have assumed that one has no point mentioning his countries revolutionaries. If I did that, I could give you a huge list of names from the 1821 revolution and from other instances - people who did admirable stuff and who died as martyrs. There is no point in doing that however; since we are in an international forum, it is good from time to time to express ourselves about things outside the confines of each one's little country.

Btw, I am curious, how many of you know about Ypsilantis, Kolokotronis, Papaflessas, Karaiskakis, Androutsos, Athanasios Diakos, Nikitaras, Miaoulis, Bouboulina, Kanaris, etc?

	13-06-2002 23:12									#90
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quote: If I did that, I could give you a huge list of names from the 1821 revolution and from other instances - people who did admirable stuff and who died as martyrs. There is no point in doing that however; since we are in an international forum, it is good from time to time to express ourselves about things outside the confines of each one's little country.

Another point is that while even most non-Americans know about Jefferson, Washington et al, and their actions not only changed history measurably but also arguably brought around modern democracy and certainly helped in fall of aristocracy, while Greek revolutionaries aren't known anywhere outside Greece and their effects to world history were negligible.

And America, unlike Greece (or Finland) isn't a little country. It's the most influential country in the world and has 250 million people.

I, for instance, don't know a thing about Greek revolution of 1821, apart from it being by Greeks and presumably being against Turkey - I don't even know if it was succesful. I know, however, a bit more about American revolution, and it certainly was a good revolution - it was a last resort, as Americans couldn't influence the taxes Brits put on them, and it is one of the rare cases (perhaps only case?) where armed revolution has led to a democratic government.