13-06-2002 23:22									#91
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280 million, thank you.

	13-06-2002 23:24									#92
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That doesn't make George Washington a greater Revolutionary than Theodoros Kolokotronis.

And the Greek Revolution inspired all the Balkan nations and the Italians in their respective revolutions and many individuals around the globe, like Eugene Delacroix and Lord Byron. It was the first revolution to occur after the Autocracy had defeated Napoleon and the French Revolution in Waterloo.

Look now, you made me sound like paiktis, you spoiler you!

	13-06-2002 23:25									#93
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Until it hits 300 million, I'll choose to memorize 250 million, thank you.

	13-06-2002 23:25									#94
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It occurs to me that unlike Washington, your "revolution" established a monarchy. In any event, neither was a revolution, they were wars of independence.

	13-06-2002 23:29									#95
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quote: Originally posted by axi Btw, I am curious, how many of you know about Ypsilantis, Kolokotronis, Papaflessas, Karaiskakis, Androutsos, Athanasios Diakos, Nikitaras, Miaoulis, Bouboulina, Kanaris, etc?

Who?

	13-06-2002 23:30									#96
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quote: That doesn't make George Washington a greater Revolutionary than Theodoros Kolokotronis.

But it does explain why an American, or anyone else non-Greek, would sooner list an American revolutionary than Theodoros Kolokotronis, of whom I know nothing about except his presumably member of S.A.G.A.P.O nation connected with revolution of 1821.

	13-06-2002 23:32									#97
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quote: In any event, neither was a revolution, they were wars of independence.

All wars of independece are revolutions in sense that they end one authority's rule over particular area and establish another authority. What separates it from "real" revolution is that "real" revolution does it for whole country.

	13-06-2002 23:46									#98
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quote: It occurs to me that unlike Washington, your "revolution" established a monarchy. In any event, neither was a revolution, they were wars of independence.

1. 1774 was a war of independence or a revolution? I guess it was both because it formed a nation and replaced monarchy with republic.

2. 1821 was a revolution because the revolutionaries were both trying for national independence but also for a democratic/republican regime. During the 10 years of the revolution, 3 different constitutions were put in effect, which involved some kind of parliament. These were replaced in 1829-1832 IIRC by a governor who was replaced (after two years of civ-style anarchy) by absolute monarchy in 1834. But absolute monarchy ywas inflicted to us from the Great Powers and there had to be another revolt in 1843 to grant us a constitution. Then we had to wat for the king to die heirless to be given another king who granted us a parliament in 1864. Then we had to wait until 1876 when some stubborn politician insisted that the government should come from the majority in the parlaiment instead of being appointed by the king. Then we had to wait until 1974 to get rid of the monarchy alltogether (with a failed attempt in 1935). That's for history's sake...

Being a small nation means you'll get screwed many times over until they let you do what you really want.

	14-06-2002 01:48									#99
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So in other words, when Americans comment on something they're proud of, with their country, they are suppose to be subjected to anti-American boo-hooing.

And when other people of other countries comment on something they're proud of, with their country, it is legitimate.

Wow -- that is like, sooooooo fair.

	14-06-2002 01:50									#100
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I don't know if I agree or disagree with any of them. I have not seen one set of revolutionaries that have a clear cut cause that I would completely agree with. It's a large grey area. I have yet to see a black and white scenario.

Although I admit I am not informed when it comes to most of the world revolutions going on right now.

	14-06-2002 03:21									#101
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World Turned Upside Down (Diggers)

(Leon Rosselson)

Recorded by **** Gaughan

In 1649
To St George's Hill
A ragged band they called the Diggers
Came to show the people' s will
They defied the landlords
They defied the laws
They were the dispossessed
Reclaiming what was theirs


We come in peace, they said
To dig and sow
We come to work the land in common
And to make the waste land grow
This earth divided
We will make whole
So it can be
A common treasury for all.


The sin of property
We do disdain
No one has any right to buy and sell
The earth for private gain
By theft and murder
They took the land
Now everywhere the walls
Rise up at their command.


They make the laws
To chain us well
The clergy dazzle us with heaven
Or they damn us into hell
We will not worship
The God they serve
The God of greed who feeds the rich
While poor men starve


We work, we eat together
We need no swords
We will not bow to masters
Or pay rent to the lords
We are free men
Though we are poor
You Diggers all stand up for glory


Stand up now
From the men of property
The orders came
They sent the hired men and troopers
To wipe out the Diggers' claim
Tear down their cottages
Destroy their corn
They were dispersed -
Only the vision lingers on


You poor take courage
You rich take care
The earth was made a common treasury
For everyone to share
All things in common
All people one
We come in peace
The order came to cut them down

	14-06-2002 04:02									#102
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The diggers were pretty cool. There was a strong leveller tendency in the Amiercan revolution, which is why the "Founding Fathers" got involved, to protect their property.

	14-06-2002 04:21									#103
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How about Joe Hill?

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
Alive as you and me
Says I, 'but Joe, you're ten years dead!'
'I never died,' says he,
'I never died,' says he.

'In Salt Lake City,' Joe says, 'I
Am standing by my bed.'
'They framed you on a murder charge.'
Says Joe: 'but I ain't dead!'
Says Joe: 'but I ain't dead!'

'The copper bosses killed you, Joe!
They shot you dead!' says I.
'Takes more than guns to kill a man,"
Says Joe, "I didn't die."
Says Joe, "I didn't die."

And standing there, as big life
And smiling with his eyes,
Says Joe, 'What they can never kill
Went on to organize!
Went on to organize!'

From San Diego up to Maine,
In every mine and mill,
Where workers fight to organize,
It's there you'll find Joe Hill,
It's there you'll find Joe Hill.

	14-06-2002 04:23									#104
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The Internationale [variant words in square brackets]

Arise ye workers [starvelings] from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth [forthwith] the old tradition [conditions]
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.

No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty [give up their booty]
And give to all a happier lot.
Each [those] at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot.

	14-06-2002 04:27									#105
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Another commie tune

In Old Moscow, In the Kremlin
(a Trotskyist song, written after the Hitler-Stalin pact of Sept. 1939. To the tune of "Oh, my Darlin Clementine")

In Old Moscow, in the Kremlin
In the Fall of '39
Sat a Russian and a Prussian
Drawing up the Party Line

(Chorus)
Oh my Stalin, Oh my Stalin,
Oh my Stalin party line
Oh I never will forsake you
For I love this life of mine

Leon Trotsky was a Nazi
We all knew it for a fact
Pravda said it, We all read it
'fore the Hitler-Stalin pact

Once, a Nazi, would be shotsy
That was then the party line
Now a Nazi's, hotsy-totsy
Volga boatmen sail the Rhine

Now the Fuhrer and our leader
Stand within the party line
All the Russians, love the Prussians
Trotsky's laying British mines

	14-06-2002 04:42									#106
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McDonald's doesn't have a great song, but I'd still put Ray Kroc up there with any other revolutionary. Not particularly for his personal accomplishments, but for the accomplishments of the entity he founded, McDonald's Corporation. Say what you want about their food (which I try to avoid) but McDonald's spread across the globe has had a profound influence on the direction our world is headed in.

Charles Merrill and his investment bank practically invented the concept of Mom & Pop shareholders as a major force in the capital markets. That concept has also spread through the developed world and also has fairly profound implications for how the world is organized.

And Akio Morita ... just take a good long look at Sony. Morita developed one of the first truly borderless corporations. He exemplifies the modern revolutionary. Screw idiotic flag waiving, bloodshed and the lust for political power. Morita took his vision of the way the world ought to work and just went out and did it.

	14-06-2002 04:45									#107
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None of them are revolutionaries.

	14-06-2002 04:47									#108
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They are economic revolutionaries (of a sort).

	14-06-2002 04:49									#109
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Bah. They didn't even manage to kill a few people, these spineless servants of the Corporate Masters.

You can't really expect a decent commie to take them seriously.

	14-06-2002 04:51									#110
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Che: I don't think you've quite grasped the significance of the three revolutionaries I chose. There is a good argument that these three people have done more to undermine the 19th century concept of a nation state than any three other modern individuals.

	14-06-2002 06:21									#111
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Any of those who actually do something constructive, and not just murder people for greed and lust for power....Hopefully, we will see (mostly) non-violent revolutionaries like Gandhi once again...

	14-06-2002 06:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by axi You see DaShi.... This is the sort of list that smells fishy to me. The people on those lists have one common element: they are acceptable by the US "system of values". Regarding how much revolutionary they were, see Ataturk side by side with Martin Luther King. My case rests.

God forbid that the US has values! They should all have the same values as you. In fact, the whole world should have the same values. There'd be a lot less conflict that way.

Oh and you didn't cite this before you went on your rant. Your rant was triggered by minimal (truly no) provokation.

	14-06-2002 06:48									#113
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Bah. They didn't even manage to kill a few people, these spineless servants of the Corporate Masters. You can't really expect a decent commie to take them seriously.

I'll bet McDonald's has killed more than a few people.

	14-06-2002 07:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by axi Who Ataturk? He commited genocide for crying out loud!

Ieeee! I put Ataturk there for his modernization of Turkey. I wasn't aware he was also behind the genocide. Jurassic erase his name off my list!

	14-06-2002 08:45									#115
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Well, he did run the country at the time...

	14-06-2002 08:53									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Che: I don't think you've quite grasped the significance of the three revolutionaries I chose. There is a good argument that these three people have done more to undermine the 19th century concept of a nation state than any three other modern individuals.

They haven't overturned anything. At best they done extremely well in the system that they are a part of. They haven't done anything new. At the begining of the 21st Century the nation-state is just as strong as ever. To call them revolutionary would be like calling Louis the XIV revolutionary.

	14-06-2002 09:14									#117
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Martin Luther-Got the people in Rome to sit up and take notice.

American Founding Fathers-They managed a revolution without it turning to into a worse government than before with some paying dearly for their deeds.

Thomas Paine - I know he was a contemporary of the founding fathers, but he was advocating common sense before the others.

Abolitionists - Among the first was Benjamin Franklin

Mahatma Gandhi-Shamed the British Empire into doing the right thing. Too bad it was too late for the Irish.

Martin Luther King Jr.-Scorned by Malcolm X and other militants , he sought to shame American as Gandhi did the Brits.

	14-06-2002 09:25									#118
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Spray, you know what X said about King? They better hope they kill me [X] before they kill King. X respected King.

	14-06-2002 11:09									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They haven't overturned anything.

I don't agree that overturning a government is a necessary precondition to being revolutionary. Two of these guys developed a working way of making something other than nation states and religion matter on the world stage and the other fundamentally altered the ownership of our society's means of production. Sounds revolutionary, or at least gestalt altering, to me.

	14-06-2002 11:52									#120
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Bah. They didn't even manage to kill a few people, these spineless servants of the Corporate Masters. You can't really expect a decent commie to take them seriously.

Are you kidding? McDonalds kills thousands every year!