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Dr Zoidberg
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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
This still doesn't glue up. So he's explaining the rise of modern , non-religious antisemitism, which begun at the 19th century, with the fact that jews supposedly started to be pushed away by the local merchants that used the modern anti-semitism as a tool of taking them out, by the pretext of nationalism (i.e. "they're aliens" ) . The problem in that is that to create such a picture, you have to take as a precondition the supposed fact that jews held a unique trading niche that noone or almost noone other, before the industrial and national changes , held. This is wrong , of course. Not all jews took up this niche, and not all the people that took up this niche were jews. |
 It seems like I have to study some jewish history to go any further in this. You have any books you think I should read, Azazel? Perferably not too biased... 
quote:
I'd also , as a side note , would like to point out the falseness of arguments like this:
"It is incorrect to state that a solution for the Jewish problem has been needed for two thousand years. The very fact that in the course of this long period such a solution was not found best demonstrates that it was not necessary."
Is the fact that a solution hasn't been found for two millenia a proof of the non-existance of the problem ?
All in all, you have to give this guy some credit. He wrote it during the Holocaust. |
What I think what Léon meant is that there was no problem to begin with, thus no solution was necessary. Again it´s a confusing choice of words on his part.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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Lars-E, don't take your history directly from the Bible. The Hebrews are beliwed to have invaded Egypt along with the Hyksos. When Egypt finally overthrew its former masters, its former masters became the slaves.
Furthermore, the Philistines were decendents of the original Attic Greeks who were chased out of Greece by the Doric Greeks (except around Athens).
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 26-08-2002 at 01:44
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Jon Miller
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I thought the Philistines were phonecians
Jon Miller
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:20
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Che, that would actually made sense, because, in the bible , Joseph is a Viceroy ( of sorts ) , and It is later told that the government has changed , and the next pharoh didn't like the Hebrews. I'd say that the farther back we go in the bible, the less true are the stories. The exodus is in that "grain of truth area". One thing I am not sure of. I thought that the philistines are part of the hyksos?!
Jon: Phoenicians are a Canaanite tribe,IIRC. The art and crafts of the philistines vary from the canaanites.
KX: Well, Try to search the web. Keep your eyes peeled for racists, though.
on a side note , I would like to introduce you to a site that some of you may know , but I'll post the link anyway. It's a site about the various world mythologies. Fascinating. ( I've learned a lot about Hebrew mythology , and I thought myself quite literate in the subject .) It's amazing !  :
http://www.pantheon.org
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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Hyksos means foreign kings. The Mykenaens and the Hyksos were the same people, but one group conquered Greece, the other Egypt. Living in Cannan when the Hyksos moved through, the Hebrews picked up and went with.
Around 1200 BC, the Dorians invaded Greece, sending the Mykenaens (aka Arcadeans aka Atticans) fleeing across the Mediterranian. They attacked Egypt, then conqered Cannan, founded Carthage, etc.
JM, yes, Phoenecian and Philistines are the same people.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 26-08-2002 at 02:01
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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Phoenician means purple-dye makers. Cannan was known for its purple dye. The Phoenicians gave us the alphabet (hence the word phonetics, etc). But they were originally Greek refugees.
There were two groups of Greeks, the Mykenaens, who gave us the stories of Homer, the myths and legends or heroes an Gods. The Dorians invaded in 1200BC, sent Greece into a Dark Age and later created the Classical Age.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 26-08-2002 at 02:17
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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Che, that would actually made sense, because, in the bible , Joseph is a Viceroy ( of sorts ) , and It is later told that the government has changed , and the next pharoh didn't like the Hebrews. I'd say that the farther back we go in the bible, the less true are the stories. The exodus is in that "grain of truth area". One thing I am not sure of. I thought that the philistines are part of the hyksos?! |
I'm not the ultimate expert of ancient history (and most of the experts have an extremely narrow view on their own subject, which is equally helpful). But there is an interesting point of Egyptian history which might coincide in some way with the reports of the Bible: One of the Pharaohs, Echnaton, ascending to the throne in 1364BC as Amenophis IV., abandoned the old Egyptian religion in favour of a monotheistic (sun?) religion - thus more similar to the Jewish faith. On the other hand, Abraham is dated to around 1800BC, so Joseph is 50-100 years later. (I don't have a Bible at hand - does anybody know if it mentions Hammurabi who lived around 1700BC?) But maybe the monotheistic Jews fell into disgrace together with the Aton cult?
The time when the exodus took place was reconstructed by some historians as a sort of "world war" in which almost every nation between Greece, Egypt and Mesopotamia was involved. (Again, I haven't read too largely about it.) The Trojan war was only a part of it. Another part was the exodus. Egypt mainly opposed the Hethites (which wasn't directly mentioned in the Bible). Egypt had built up a large military industry - of which archeological proofs were found - and many peoples, certainly not only Jews - were forced to work for it under hard conditions. Reading the Bible, the Hethites look just like a minor tribe in the Sinai, but they definitely weren't. Anyway, Moses married a daughter of a Hethite leader. From this I would conclude that the Jews changed side.
Of course, the reports about Egypt still may be fiction - but if so, a well made one.
Btw. The Egyptian period of the Hyskos is 1786-1567BC (if I can believe the internet page where I found it ...)
quote:
The Phoenicians gave us the alphabet (hence the word phonetics, etc). But they were originally Greek refugees. |
The letters of the alphabet stem from hieroglyphs. So the story that it were the Jews changed the code for syllabes into a code for letters and taught it to the Phoenicians who taught it to Carthage, Greece an Rome isn't too far off. - I think in some latin version of the Bible the Philistines were called 'Creti et Pleti'. So coming (also) from Crete.
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Lazarus and the Gimp
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Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Interestingly, there is one European country that has no history of anti-Semitism, Ireland. Because the Irish and the Jews were both oppressed by the English, the Irish got along well with the Jews. |
Backtracking a bit, but that's a little removed from reality.
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk980605/sfalife.htm
From another site...
quote:
Anti-Semitism
In the later 19th to the mid 20th anti-Semitism was deeply ingrained in European culture to an extent that it is hard for us, in Western Europe, to comprehend today. The prejudice against Jews in their native countries could be likened to the attitudes many Irish people still have towards Travellers.
The first recorded outbreak of racism in Ireland in this period was a poster campaign with anti-Jewish slogans in Dublin in 1886. There were anti-Jewish letters to the papers at this time too. In April 1884 a Jewish home was surrounded in Limerick and it's occupants attacked. A similar incident took place in 1896. Jews were physically attacked in Limerick in1892 and Cork in 1894.
The Limerick Pogrom
The Limerick Pogrom of 1904 is still remembered as it was the only example of organised, widespread and sustained anti-Semitism. At the time there were only 171 Jews in Limerick, about 25 families. The boycott of the Jews of Limerick at this time was instigated by a popular priest from the Redeptorist order namded Fr Creagh but it was not approved of by the mainstream Catholic church. Creagh merely repeated anti-Semitic views common throughout Europe:
Jewish money-lending; 'historical' murder of Christian children; Jews living in luxury off the backs of the poor; Jews as anti-Catholic and in league with the Freemasons, etc. He urged the people to boycott all Jewish shops, which led to economic ruin for these traders. Jews were physically attacked in the streets. There has always been a suspicon that Creagh was put up to it by local businessmen who were losing custom to Jewish owned shops. Local trade unions passed motions of support for Creagh. The Limerick Leader newspaper also backed Creagh; an editorial stated "Ireland is, at present, being drained of its Gaelic population by emigration, and Jewish colonists are trooping in to fill up the places of emigrants, and to turn Ireland into a filthy Ghetto".
The importance of the Limerick events is that they show the danger of prejudice being converted into active hostility by a popular and charismatic figure in a positon of authority.
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Just goes to show that even the repression of perfidious Albion can still fail to turn a nation into fearless opponents of anti-semitism.
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25-08-2002 18:44
A lot of nice reading there, maybe I should change my name to something like Baal or Marduk, Asmodeus is also nice but IIRC it´s already taken 
)
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