13-06-2002 21:44									#1
	Wherein do the roots of Anit-semiticsm lie? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ok I'll play the typical non-worldy (read not up on his European History) US guy here? But in light of all that is going on where/how did all the anti-semite stuff begin. I know it predates establishment of Israel and prolly starts in earnest somewhere in the 1600-1800's.

Can someone please give some details (without too much propaganda please)?

	13-06-2002 22:01									#2
	Remove this text

From a strictly theoretical perspective the anti-semitism of today could have its roots in the so called middleman phenonomen. In the pre-moderns society there where several tasks and jobs that for some reason(s) wasn't acceptable by the society. Thus such tasks where done by groups and individuals that where excluded from it. They filled a important role in the economy but wasn't accepted by others.

Romani and many others are typical example of travellers that did such things. Jews as well as specialists and money-lenders in towns. This form of "racism" is very old and also have a different depth than racism against people on the other side of a sea.

	13-06-2002 22:09									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Building on what Kropotkin has written, anti-Semitism has two main sources. First is their "role" as Christ-killers, and the Jews failure to become Christian as the latter sect was growing. Christianity never really forgave the Jews for failing to accept the revealed truth that Jeshua ben Joseph was the messiah. Anti-semitism is almost as old as Christianity itself.

The more immediate problem, however, as that the Church forbade Christians from engaging in money-lending or profiting from trading. According to the church, work must be the only source of profit. Jews, hoever, not being Christian, weren't bound by this rule. As time went by, Jews were legally excluded from more and more trades (they were forbidden to own land, for example) and more and more had to go into trading and money-lending. No one like money-lenders, even if they are necessary.

A third reason is that as a powerless minority, they were easy to scapegoat. Got problems in your city BLAME THE JEWS!

	13-06-2002 22:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The Catholic church and other religious groups persecuted Jews because they supposedly killed Jesus Christ. Martin Luther did not care for Jews either. Of course religious people killed each other as well but the Jews seemed to always be in the crossfire. When they were persecuted for religious reasons many lies were told about them to stir up animosity. Some people still believe those lies. They have their good and bad like any other group of people but history is full of referrences to Jews doing this or that so there is plenty of material for people to use if they want to find an excuse for hating an entire people.

	13-06-2002 22:14									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It comes from Hell

	13-06-2002 22:15									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Actually Jews were not allowed to practice "usury" among their own people at least.

	13-06-2002 22:20									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lincoln: It kinda sounds like you're attacking the Catholic Church. Yes, there have been bad experiences in the past, but the Catholic Church is very Jew friendly right now.

	13-06-2002 22:27									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Interesting. Most of this is what I had heard/suspected. I merely thought most of it stereotyping. (Rich Jew moneylender etc.) The Christ-Killer reference obviously. I wasn't quite aware of the Church rules on profit generation and ultimately ability to own land. So are we saying then that the roots of anti-semiticism lie within the Catholic Church? That if the catholic church had simply allowed more tolerance to jews and allowed them ability to work more traditional careers much of the probelm would have been eliminated?

If this is the case then multigenerational impacts of anti-semite feeling appear to be a difficult habit to break. I wonder why the feeling was not as strongly exported to the US with the number of Euro settlers? Perhaps it is a dillution affect considering influx of Pacific Rim immigrants. Regardless, news tends to implicate Black segments of US populace as being anti-semetic. Is this simply due to more of the socio-economic disparities (playing into the money-lender rich cat stereotype) or is it due to a large influx of Muslim attitudes being adopted by the black community? Or is the news completely off base regarding anti-semitic feelings of blacks?

Interesting, indeed.

Looks like a cross posted a bit... LOL

	13-06-2002 22:29									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Anti-semitism pre-dates the Catholic church. It dates back to early Christianity, to the seperation of Christianity as a seperate religion and not merely another Jewish sect. It was certainly before the fall of Jerusalem.

The reason why it didn't take here in the US as strongly is because the US has no state religion, where as the European countries did. Interestingly, there is one European country that has no history of anti-Semitism, Ireland. Because the Irish and the Jews were both oppressed by the English, the Irish got along well with the Jews.

	13-06-2002 22:31									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ok Anti-semite feelings in Europe.

Do they predate Catholic Church?

	13-06-2002 22:32									#11
	Tired of ads?

I think it began in Rome during the great fire. Nero rounded up the Jews as suspects. At that time, Christians were primarily a Jewish sect in Rome. They were rounded up as well.

But the "orthodox" Jews distinguished themselves from Christian Jews and blamed the fire on the Christians. The Roman persecution of the Christians began. The Cristian did not forget.

Later, during the Crusades, the Jews were treated as infidels just as much as Moslems. They were severely persecuted in Europe and massacred in the Holy Land. The hatred was openly fanned by the church.

The church viewed "usury" as a sin. At one point the Pope actually said that Europe was being brought into ruin by the Jews and usury.

The Jews were forced to leave "Spain" during this period (unless they converted) and settled in England. But their persecution continued there as well. In 1264, there was a general massacre. In 1290, they were expelled from England. Shortly thereafter, they were expelled from France. They moved to a place on the borders of Poland and Russia, known as the Pale. where the Western church's influence was minimal.
Jews were still numerous in the Holy Roman Empire, but they too were continually massacred and forced to move East - to the Pale.

When the Protestant reformation began, the counter-reformation also began. In one form, this was known as the Inquisition. In Spain, the Pope let the Spanish do their own thing.

What the Spanish did was round up the Jews who had converted and tortured them until they "confessed." If they refused to confess, they burned them at the stake.

After a time, the crusader spirit lessened in Europe and the Jews began to move back to the West. But even though the hatred was reduced, it remained strong.

The Jews thought that they could live peacefully in the West. But they found out differently with the Dreyfus affair. This spawned the Zionist movement - and the rest is pretty much well known.

Last edited by Ned on 25-08-2002 at 08:15

	13-06-2002 22:33									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, especially since the Catholic Church hasn't been around since the beginning of Christianity.

	13-06-2002 22:33									#13
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Lincoln: It kinda sounds like you're attacking the Catholic Church. Yes, there have been bad experiences in the past, but the Catholic Church is very Jew friendly right now.

No, I was just pointing out that both Catholics and Protestants persecuted Jews in the past. Like Che said though, antisemitism pre-dates both churches though.

	13-06-2002 22:41									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ned But the "orthodox" Jews distinguished themselves from Christian Jews and blamed the fire on the Christians. The persecution of the Christians began. The Cristian did not forget.

I've never heard this. The Christians were singled out because they seemed happy when Rome burned, because they thought it was the end of the world (insane millenarian cults). The Jews were a special group within the Roman empire (there may have been one or two others), in that they weren't required to worship Roman gods. Jewish piety impressed the heck out of many Romans, and when Judaism-lite came along (Christianity, Judaism without all the rules), many jumped for it.

Christianity, despite its claims, was never severely persecuted in Rome. Yes, it was illegal, but Rome had a sort of, don't ask, don't tell policy. People who were martyrs volunteered to be martyrs in order to spread the faith.

Given this sort of fanaticism, it's small wonder that the early Christians viewed Judaism's refusal to convert as a betrayal. In fact, the whole Christian concept of sin and evil and the devil also dates to this period and is related to their growing rhetorical attacks on the Jews.

There's a very interesting book about this called The Origins of Evil.

	13-06-2002 22:47									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Christianity, despite its claims, was never severely persecuted in Rome"

you are joking of course...

	13-06-2002 22:50									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

There aren't really that many martyrs, Lincoln. You'd expect a lot more if they were as persecuted as they claim to have been. I'm not saying they weren't killed. Some definately were. But seeing as how easy it was for the Christians to wipe out all other religions once they got state power, one must conclude the the Romans really weren't trying that hard.

	13-06-2002 22:55									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well for one thing I don't call all of the so called Christian movements and power struggles "Christian". The persecution of peace loving Christians is simply a matter of history just like the persecution of like minded Jews is history. I could not care less what roving bands of armed "Christians" do.

	13-06-2002 22:57									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Delete Post

	13-06-2002 23:00									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Let's put it this way. In their thousand year history, the Romans only banned two religions, the Druids (who practiced human sacrifice) and the Christians. They wiped out the Druids. They didn't bother with the Christians. They could have wiped out the Christians had they so chosen. Instead they confiscated their property, threw some in jail, martyred those that insisted upon it (only one is know to have been thrown to the lions, IIRC). I'm not saying it was easy being a Christian, but they didn't have it as hard as modern Christians like to pretend.

	13-06-2002 23:03									#20
	Got spare money?

Okay,

I have to bite again. I always thought the catholic church claimed its right as the only real church because it had direct links back to the very first Pope, Peter.

I see many references here saying anti-semitism stems from attrocities during the early period of the church. Are people making a distinction between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church when making these statements?

Thanks

Og

	13-06-2002 23:07									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You really should study up on it some more che. There have been many millions of Christians killed throughout history and I am talking about non-violent ones. In the twentieth century alone there was and is a blood bath. But we are off topic. The point is the roots of Jewish persecution. Like I said, much of it was the result of those who misused the name of Jesus who said to love your neighbor, not kill him.

	13-06-2002 23:08									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Catholic Chruch was founded at the Council of Nicea, in 168 AD (IIRC). From this Council came anti-Semitic pronouncments such as "God hates you!" (directed towards the Jews). The pruporse of the Council was to deal with the growing number of varients of Christianity, especially the Arian heresey. There were other Christian churchs. The Coptic and Armenian and Ethiopean churchs are older than the Catholic church.

The Bishop of Rome claimed primacy because of Peter, but there were contenders, such as the Bishop of Ephesius (IIRC).

	13-06-2002 23:15									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Lincoln, I'm well aware of the persecution of Christians, especially by other Chrisitians. What I'm saying is that it wasn't as hard for Christians during the period of Roman persecution of Christianity as Christians like to claim. The Germans were harder on the Christians than the Romans were. Christianity was eradicated from much of the Western Roman empire after its fall and it took hundreds of years to reestablish itself. Luckily for Rome, Alaric, head of the Ostrogoths converted in the 4th Century AD, as the Ostrogoths later took Italy.

	13-06-2002 23:16									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

One thing I still cannot understand is how much attention the Jews are getting. If everybody stopped concerning themselves about the Jews, then there would be no antisemitism to begin with.

If I were to start a thread about anthellenism, it would get lost in the 10th page. Now it's at least the 5th time I see the exact same topic and I bet it will get more than 3 pages long in two days.

	13-06-2002 23:24									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ogie, While some may disipute this, there was only one Church in the Empire after the Council of Nicea. The Calthoic Church. There were some "heretical" branches of Christianity outside the Empire.

This church had a number of "Apostolic Sees" - founded by ones of the original twelve apostles. The See in Rome was founded by both Peter and Paul. Because of this, the bishop of Rome always considered himself the first among equals. This was generally acknowledged in the early church. For example, the Pope had to approve the Canons of the ecumenical councils before they became "law."

In 445, Emperor Valentianian III appointed the Pope "Pontifex Maximus" or high priest. This was an official Roman title from the days of the Republic. Every emperor from the time of Augustus until Gratian was given this title by the Senate. Gratian refused the title -as it required the emperor to officiate at pagan ceremonies. However, by 445, the old pagan religion was banned. Thus the title was given to the bishop of Rome as the official head of the official church of the Roman Empire.

The Pope still retains this title.

However, as power shifted to Constantinople, the Patriarch of Constantinople increasingly began to assert co-equal status with the Pope. In the end, this lead to the great schism.

Today, the Western Church is known as the "Roman" Catholic church. However, in truth, all sects that descend from the Council of Nicea are Catholic - even, IMO, protestant churchs that adhere to its cannons.

Last edited by Ned on 13-06-2002 at 23:45

	13-06-2002 23:30									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah, that always was odd to me. We'd say the Nicean creed in our Episcopal Chruch, "One holy catholic and apostolic church." Confirmation class cleared that up for me.

	23-08-2002 04:58									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

He he I remember what one of my favourite historical personalities did. His name was John "the Mad" and he was prince of ?aga? )sold it to Saxon dukes) and of half of G?ogów (both in Silesia). He fought all his neighbours;
little Silesian duchies, Poland, Brandenburg, Bohemia, Hungary. Incredible, isn't it! With only a half of one city.
Anyway of course he lacked money. So when once he incidentally playing some game smashed a window of
a church he convinced the city council that it must have been
those bad Jews that did that. The council knew the truth but got to the point that it's better let the prince rob the Jews not themselves... and he got money this way. He treated priests as bad in fact, and when the pope asked him to visit him and kiss his ring he replied in a quite rude manner.
One of nicer things he did was when he fought his bros
Baltazar and he defeated his army. he sent it all back
to his bros - nude. I wonder why Basilios Bulgaroktonos
couldn't do sth in that manner. It would have finished the tzar as well I guess.
Why am I writting about that?
It's all because of money. Jews were in the east
the owners of uh pubs, kind of tax-collectors of the gentry. Gentry loved Jews! And peasants hated them as well as their urban concurents.

	23-08-2002 05:52									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Anti-semitism also pre-dates Christianity (or at least pre-dates Christianity being the dominant Roman religion). The Jews were one of the Romans least-favorite subject people's what with them revolting all the time and whatnot and were generally not well liked (like, say, how Turks feel about Kurds at the moment) a this lead to a desire among Christians to disassociate themselves from their Jewish roots (especailly after the 70 AD revolt) and having the Jews bear the responsibility for christ killing than romans could possibly be part of this...

	23-08-2002 06:44									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would disagree with you, there. Boshko. The Jews were one of the more respected groups in the Roman Empire because of their devotion to their religion. They were one of two groups that were forgiven by law from having to sacrifice to Roman gods. The Romans were a very religious people, so they admired the piety of the Jews.

Had the Jews been a prosteltyzing religion, and had their rules not been so strict, the religion likely would have gorwn quite large. One of the reasons for the spread of Chrisitanity was that people could now become "Jewish" without having to get circumcized and stuff.

While Judea had always been a problem province, it wasn't until a couple of ham-handed Roman govenors really provoked the Jews that they got rebellious. This was after Christ.

	23-08-2002 07:27									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Anti-semitism pre-dates the Catholic church. It dates back to early Christianity, to the seperation of Christianity as a seperate religion and not merely another Jewish sect. It was certainly before the fall of Jerusalem.

If you go back that far in the history of the church you find that the Christians were indeed persecuted by Jews. They considered Christianity to be subversive, and since the Christians consorted with gentiles without requiring them to obey Jewish law, they were considered to be unclean.