18-06-2002 11:29									#271
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher They didn't have to after they made that stupid law requiring massive auto production in Canada. The "welfare" package for the prairies is only a partial payment, the federal government is forcing the provinces to pick up the rest of the tab. However, when it comes to Air Canada -- the second they're in trouble, it's time to give them huge subsidies. West Jet doesn't get any. Air Canada is based where? Ontario. WestJet is based where? Alberta. It also makes me wonder why Canadian Airlines didn't get more subsidies while in business to keep a competitive airline industry. Was that because it was a Calgary company as well? The second after Air Canada buys up Canadian (which should have never happened, btw), the federal government threw money at Air Canada.

Let's see how you're doing so far:

1) You claim Ottawa doesn't help prairie farmers. Wrong.
2) You claim that Ottawa will swoop in and help the auto industry. You now admit that you are wrong.
3) You claim that Air Canada is based in Ontario. Wrong.
4) You claim that Westjet does not get help from the federal government. Wrong, Ottawa gave $160 million to all airlines after 9/11

You're batting 0 for 4.

And there is nothing wrong with Ottawa saying that the provinces should help out their own farmers.

	18-06-2002 11:39									#272
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Let's see how you're doing so far: 1) You claim Ottawa doesn't help prairie farmers. Wrong.

$800M is only a fraction of what the farmer wanted. And how long did it take for them to get this aid, Tingkai? Want to answer that one for us? How long ago did Western Farmers take their tractors and parade them around in downtown Ottawa in protest?

quote: 2) You claim that Ottawa will swoop in and help the auto industry. You now admit that you are wrong.

Huh? I never said that, at all. Ottawa DID swoop in and help the auto industry in a HUGE way, by forcing US auto manufacturers to produce those cars in Canada. Else they wouldn't be there. You do know that, right?

quote: 3) You claim that Air Canada is based in Ontario. Wrong.

Quebec, whatever, it's the same difference. Major voting pool, not a minority province.

quote: 4) You claim that Westjet does not get help from the federal government. Wrong, Ottawa gave $160 million to all airlines after 9/11

Of which Air Canada got a whopping $100M from. All of the other airlines in Canada got to split the $60M.

And I was talking before 9/11, Tingkai.

quote: And there is nothing wrong with Ottawa saying that the provinces should help out their own farmers.

There is nothing wrong with Ottawa paying the full portion themselves, either. In fact that's what they've done with Air Canada.

	18-06-2002 12:01									#273
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I will admit I was wrong about the Air Canada subsidies thing. I was thinking of when Air Canada demanded $4B from Ottawa in aid while at the same time WestJet was arguing that the government shouldn't be giving it any aid.

But Ottawa should have never let Air Canada take Canadian Airlines over in the first place.

But the point still stands: Ottawa prioritizes the needs of the country based upon where their votes are coming from. That's the best way to do it with the current structure of the government.

There is no incentive to help the small minority provinces, so they get a back seat to the needs of Ontario and Quebec. Which is why it took about a year to get ANY kind of farm aid out of Ottawa, and when it did come it was decidedly lacking in funds, while at the same time forcing the ailing provinces to fund the rest. Do you know how hard it is for those provinces to come up with that kind of money since most of their economy is based upon that very same sector the aid money is supposed to bail out?

	18-06-2002 12:08									#274
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: When the Alberta Socreds tried to limit freedom of the press, they were blocked by the Supreme Court. Of course, the Albertans *****ed about how this was an example of the goddamn Easterners interfering in provincial rights

And an Alberta newspaper won a Pulitzer that year for their vigorous defense of freedom of the press against the insanity of Bible Bill...

	18-06-2002 12:14									#275
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by RedFred Careful Asher. Your discussion regarding the 'tyranny of the majority' and 'Alberta is not being flagrantly discriminated against now, but was in the past' and 'Alberta is always a net contributer to Confederation' all sound remarkably similar to the same arguements that Quebec separatists use to justify their own politics. Just substitute Quebec for Alberta

I've been noticing lately how similar the two are. Like spoiled brats...

quote: I agree with your first point Boris, but I disagree on the point that each state has more autonomy than each province.

Historically US states had far more power than Canadian provinces. In the last 60 years or so, though, the federal government has given the provinces more and more autonomy, to the point where they probably have more than states in the US (which has been busy centralising federal power). The fact remains, though, that the historical justification for a US-style Senate is simply not present in Canada. We weren't formed as a fundamentally international agreement between colonies; we were created from colonies under the authority of the Crown. Provincial powers were given and extended by the good grace of the Crown and federal government, not acquired from negotiation prior to joining.

	18-06-2002 12:17									#276
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I've been noticing lately how similar the two are. Like spoiled brats...

Spoiled brats because we don't like a country that is too diverse for its own good, while at the same time run by a government that doesn't respect that diversity?

Spoiled brats is a bit harsh, how about frustrated by the inept government?

And why do you talk about history giving us a need for a Senate? Why do you think that matters at all?

The fact remains NOW that provinces are largely autonomous and we are perhaps the most diverse country in the world. At the same time, we have one of the most centralized governments in the world with seemingly unrestricted power and is continually voted in by one specific region due to insane population. The end result is we continually have one or two specific regions voting in a government that's supposed to represent Canadians as a whole, when most of the diverse regions are left out in the cold because they don't form the majority population.

	18-06-2002 12:23									#277
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We don't have a very centralised government, Ashie. I just got through noting that our federal government has weak powers compared to those of the US.
I also doubt we have one of the most diverse nations interprovincially; the diversity isn't geographic, but is present in most communities.

Canadians are one of the most mobile nations on the planet. Your parents weren't born in Alberta. Flubber moved there from PEI.

Alberta's experienced 10% growth in the last 5 years. That's not from loads of baby Albertans; it's from people moving from other provinces. It'll make Alberta stronger in the long run, but that demographic is shifting, Asher...

	18-06-2002 12:24									#278
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher There is no incentive to help the small minority provinces, so they get a back seat to the needs of Ontario and Quebec. Which is why it took about a year to get ANY kind of farm aid out of Ottawa, and when it did come it was decidedly lacking in funds, while at the same time forcing the ailing provinces to fund the rest. Do you know how hard it is for those provinces to come up with that kind of money since most of their economy is based upon that very same sector the aid money is supposed to bail out?

Give it up Asher. All you’re doing is digging yourself deeper into the ground.

The welfare handouts to farmers and farm corporations is in response to the US farm bill passed last month. So to say it took a year for the government to respond is incorrect. The corporate welfare handouts to the airlines also took about a month.

You claim that Ottawa is only providing a “tiny fraction” of what the farmers need.

Let’s see the farmers want a $1.3 billion hand out and Ottawa is giving them $800 million, in other words 60 per cent of what the prairie welfare bums want. That’s hardly a “tiny fraction”

Your claim that western farmers are ignored by Ottawa just doesn’t hold up. The farmers, including those in Alberta, have received billions and billions of dollars in welfare payments during the past 40 years.

Your comparison of the handouts to a trade pact signed 40 years ago is ridiculous. The trade pact didn’t cost Ottawa a single penny. It has created and maintained hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs during the past 40 years. The industry was not in trouble when it was signed.

You also don’t know anything about the auto industry. The Canadian car plants are more efficient than the US plants. This is why the American auto manufacturers have never bothered to challenge the auto trade pact.

Air Canada may have received the largest chunk of the welfare handout, but what do you expect. Air Canada is the largest airline, employing the most people.

All you are doing is displaying the typical Albertan paranoia that is all too often built on incorrect myths about how Ottawa screws the west.

	18-06-2002 12:26									#279
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We don't have a very centralised government, Ashie. I just got through noting that our federal government has weak powers compared to those of the US.

Yet they still have the power to nationalize energy revenues at whim, pester a province about how it implements public health care, etc?

quote: I also doubt we have one of the most diverse nations interprovincially; the diversity isn't geographic, but is present in most communities.

I think we do. Compare ideologies in Alberta to Quebec to Ontario to Newfoundland -- you'll find they're quite diverse. What other country compares?

quote: Alberta's experienced 10% growth in the last 5 years. That's not from loads of baby Albertans; it's from people moving from other provinces. It'll make Alberta stronger in the long run, but that demographic is shifting, Asher...

I don't really think so, KrazyHorse.
Alberta's experienced explosive growth since the 1960s and our demographic still hasn't changed much. Why do you think it's going to be any different now?

	18-06-2002 12:31									#280
	Tired of ads?

Not racial, Asher. Birthplace.

The reason race isn't changing that much (beyond growth of Asian pop. from foreign immigration) is that the racial makeup is similar across the country. More Asians on the West Coast, more Arabs and North Africans here, but not a dramatic difference.

	18-06-2002 12:36									#281
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The welfare handouts to farmers and farm corporations is in response to the US farm bill passed last month. So to say it took a year for the government to respond is incorrect. The corporate welfare handouts to the airlines also took about a month.

The US has always been giving out those subsidies, Tingkai, and you know that. Canadian farmers have been asking for increased subsidies just to compete with US and European farmers since early in 2001, and they finally got them now. And they also found out their provinces have to pick up 40% of the tab of it, which is probably going to be impossible to do so they won't get the money they need.

quote: Your claim that western farmers are ignored by Ottawa just doesn’t hold up. The farmers, including those in Alberta, have received billions and billions of dollars in welfare payments during the past 40 years.

Okay, so let's see here. 11% of Canadian farm revenues are from subsidies. 46% of American farm revenues are from subsidies. The two countries are right next to eachother and direct competitors. Which one is being better looked after by their government? 58% of Europe's farm revenues are from subsidies. Source: http://www.cwb.ca/publicat/nr/2001/032201.shtml

quote: Your comparison of the handouts to a trade pact signed 40 years ago is ridiculous. The trade pact didn’t cost Ottawa a single penny. It has created and maintained hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs during the past 40 years. The industry was not in trouble when it was signed.

It's only ridiculous because you don't understand the argument again.
Canada actively negotiated with the US and US companies and took action to get the trade pact. What are they doing about the farm situation right now, Tingkai? Do you see them going to the same lengths now?

quote: You also don’t know anything about the auto industry. The Canadian car plants are more efficient than the US plants. This is why the American auto manufacturers have never bothered to challenge the auto trade pact.

How do you figure? I've actually heard otherwise. My uncle is a manager at the Ford Plant in St. Thomas, Ontario, and he certainly doesn't think highly of Canadian car plants...

quote: All you are doing is displaying the typical Albertan paranoia that is all too often built on incorrect myths about how Ottawa screws the west.

You're right, it's all myths. Ottawa loves us.

Next time Chretien comes to campaign in Alberta I'm going to give him a big hug.
Next time he airs the anti-Klein TV ads here I'm going to write him and thank him for the fine job he's doing.
Next time he tells the rest of the nation blatant lies about Alberta health care I'm going to give him a massive thumbs up.
When they pass Kyoto without a passing thought to how it'll devastate Alberta's economy, I'm going to have sex with him.

	18-06-2002 12:39									#282
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not racial, Asher. Birthplace. The reason race isn't changing that much (beyond growth of Asian pop. from foreign immigration) is that the racial makeup is similar across the country. More Asians on the West Coast, more Arabs and North Africans here, but not a dramatic difference.

I've never even mentioned race.

I assumed you were talking about political demographic anyway.

	18-06-2002 12:40									#283
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Okay, so let's see here. 11% of Canadian farm revenues are from subsidies. 46% of American farm revenues are from subsidies. The two countries are right next to eachother and direct competitors. Which one is being better looked after by their government? 58% of Europe's farm revenues are from subsidies. Source: http://www.cwb.ca/publicat/nr/2001/032201.shtml

That's just an example of how corrupt the American system is. Overrepresentation of the Midwest has led to ridiculous amounts of money being handed to farmers to continue inefficient family farms.

I thought you were a complainer when it came to equalization payments, Asher.

	18-06-2002 12:44									#284
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's just an example of how corrupt the American system is. Overrepresentation of the Midwest has led to ridiculous amounts of money being handed to farmers to continue inefficient family farms.

So Europe is also corrupt then. In fact, EVERYONE is corrupt.

We don't need wheat anyway, right? Who cares if it's not profitable. Just ditch the industry, *SCREW* the provinces who depend on those agriculture revenues! HAH! That's not us, we live in Ottawa/Quebec. Useless farmers!

quote: I thought you were a complainer when it came to equalization payments, Asher.

Equalization payments == subsidies? On what planet?

When everyone else is subsidizing an industry, you have no choice but to follow suit. Otherwise you kill that industry in your country. And we've got a couple provinces right now that depend on that industry (No, Alberta isn't one of them )

	18-06-2002 12:48									#285
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Asher, I thought you were in favour of market capitalism?

quote: Equalization payments == subsidies? On what planet?

Not =, but branches on the same tree. Subsidies are equalisation payments to farming provinces.

The family farm is in a lot of trouble if they can't ever turn a profit, Asher. Farm subsidies are just an incentive to continue in an inefficient endeavour.

	18-06-2002 12:50									#286
	Wrapping it up Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Asher, I thought you were in favour of market capitalism?

Market capitalism already went to hell when the US and EU added subsidies. You have to stay competitive for the sake of those provinces who rely on agriculture. It sucks, but it's necessary for now.

----

Anyway, I've had my fill of Canadian politics for a while.

Tingkai brought up some good points and I learned quite a bit from this thread, but I still firmly believe that the majority government has too much power in Canada right now.

Perhaps a US-style senate isn't the best way to go, and perhaps a Senate based upon population via proportional representation would be best.

Either way, it's not going to happen. Most of Canada is content, and that's all that matters in Canada. No point in staying and trying to change a system most people are happy with. Those of us unhappy with it can just move a couple hundred kilometers south and quit our whining. And that's what I'll do.

	18-06-2002 13:06									#287
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Okay, so let's see here. 11% of Canadian farm revenues are from subsidies. 46% of American farm revenues are from subsidies. The two countries are right next to eachother and direct competitors. Which one is being better looked after by their government? 58% of Europe's farm revenues are from subsidies.

Asher: you’re a typical Conservative. You’ll ***** and moan about welfare payments and then you turn around and post something this stupid. Do you really think that Canadian farmers and farm corporations deserve more welfare payments just because the Americans and Europeans hand out more money? This is insane. These welfare payments simply encourage farmers to stay in an unprofitable industry.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Canada actively negotiated with the US and US companies and took action to get the trade pact. What are they doing about the farm situation right now, Tingkai? Do you see them going to the same lengths now?

Nice try, but again you are wrong. The Auto Pact was successfully negotiated because everybody benefited from the deal and both sides wanted it. The situation is completely different with farm welfare. Canada has been fighting for years for end to farm subsidies. So have the Americans. The problem is no one is willing to stop. Every time one country boosts the welfare payments, the farmers in other countries start whining and their governments end up following suit.

quote: Originally posted by Asher How do you figure? I've actually heard otherwise. My uncle is a manager at the Ford Plant in St. Thomas, Ontario, and he certainly doesn't think highly of Canadian car plants...

Labour agreements with the CAW are far more flexible than the American labour agreements. That has allowed Canadian auto plants to become more productive.

quote: Originally posted by Asher You're right, it's all myths.

Once again, you distort reality. The issue is the right-wing paranoia that uses lies to claim Ottawa is screwing the west.

Look at what you have posted. You have repeatedly posted incorrect statements. Your claim that Ottawa screws Alberta doesn’t hold water. The best you can do is a short-lived energy policy created more than 20 years ago. All the other examples of so-called persecution have been proven false.

	18-06-2002 13:16									#288
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: you’re a typical Conservative. You’ll ***** and moan about welfare payments and then you turn around and post something this stupid. Do you really think that Canadian farmers and farm corporations deserve more welfare payments just because the Americans and Europeans hand out more money? This is insane. These welfare payments simply encourage farmers to stay in an unprofitable industry.

What do you propose Saskatchewan and Manitoba do in the meantime, Tingkai? I like to think about these things realistically.

You can't just tell Canadian farmers to pull out of the industry immediately because it's not very profitable due to foreign subsidies. You need to forcibly diversify those economies or relocate the citizens of those provinces.

You can't just STOP subsidizing the farms. That would kill those provinces, they can't compete. It'd be Newfoundland but an artificially created situation.

I think in the meantime we should continue subsidizing the farmers while at the same time actively stimulate manufacturing, technology, or other areas of those economies so we can "ween" them off of agriculture, as it were.

If that's typical conservative thought, then so be it.

quote: Nice try, but again you are wrong. The Auto Pact was successfully negotiated because everybody benefited from the deal and both sides wanted it.

You're only kidding yourself, Tingkai.
You can't honestly believe that US Corportations WANTED to be limited and told where they can and can't produce their cars?

quote: Labour agreements with the CAW are far more flexible than the American labour agreements. That has allowed Canadian auto plants to become more productive.

I'm going to have to just ignore this, because I've not seen any evidence either way and frankly I don't care.

quote: Once again, you distort reality. The issue is the right-wing paranoia that uses lies to claim Ottawa is screwing the west.

They aren't screwing the west per se right now, Tingkai. But they have done it, and they may do it again if they totally cut off farm subsidies while at the same time passing Kyoto. In one fell swoop they'd destroy the economies of all of the western provinces.

quote: Look at what you have posted. You have repeatedly posted incorrect statements. Your claim that Ottawa screws Alberta doesn’t hold water.

Please, Tingkai.
NEP.
Kyoto.
Bill 11.

My claim is not specifically that Ottawa screws Alberta over, but Ottawa priorizes by votes. Which is entirely true, considering they don't even campaign here. I can't see how you can honestly argue they don't do that. Hell, that's what I'd do when I got in power.

quote: The best you can do is a short-lived energy policy created more than 20 years ago. All the other examples of so-called persecution have been proven false.

It's not so much active persecution, Tingkai, but subtle alienation. Like Chretien stating he doesn't like working with Westerners because they're "different" or his contant battles with Klein over just about everything. Forcing the G8 to take place in Alberta when Klein initially told him we didn't want it, and it took him weeks of convincing to finally foot the security bill for it.

Again, my main complaint is just about how the majority government has too much power. I'd really wish you'd stop twisting this to an alienation thing every time, because it's very easy to get me wrapped up in that.

	18-06-2002 13:27									#289
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've found a fairly good 26-slide presentation on Western Alienation: http://www.canadianstudies.ab.ca/Ne...tAlienation.pdf

According to this survey (done in late 2001), 53% in the West believe they are treated worse than other provinces.
This compares to 45% in the Atlantic, 37% in Quebec, and 12% in Ontario.

43% think the Feds have too much power in Alberta. In Ontario that number is 21%. Why the disparity?

Edit:
And 73% of Albertans think they subsidize the rest of the country too much.
77% of Albertans think they have little say in how the federal government spends money coming from Alberta

84% of BC think the federal leaders don't pay enough attention to them.
77% of BC thinks they don't get their fare share from Ottawa.

Last edited by Asher on 18-06-2002 at 13:36

	18-06-2002 13:41									#290
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've requested Ming close down this thread because I feel the discussion has run its course several times over.

If any of you still want to debate it feel free to post your own topic and go for it, but I don't think I'll be joining you because I've really surpassed my tolerance for arguing Canadian politics.

As rude as I was to some people, thanks for participating and sorry. I really do feel like I've learned a lot from this thread so it's not all in vain.

	18-06-2002 15:05									#291
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Asher According to this survey (done in late 2001), 53% in the West believe they are treated worse than other provinces. This compares to 45% in the Atlantic, 37% in Quebec, and 12% in Ontario. 43% think the Feds have too much power in Alberta. In Ontario that number is 21%. Why the disparity?

That’s funny. Despite all the money that goes to the Atlantic provinces, Maritimers think they are treated worse than other provinces.

As for the disparity, the answer is simple. People in Ontario waste their time whining about Ottawa. We’re too busy trying to make a living. Meanwhile in Alberta, whining about the Eastern bastards is a daily ritual.

quote: Originally posted by Asher And 73% of Albertans think they subsidize the rest of the country too much. 77% of Albertans think they have little say in how the federal government spends money coming from Alberta

Sure, and most Albertans probably think that they pay most of the equalization payments, even though they don’t. Most Albertans probably think that they provide most of the taxes to Ottawa. Most Albertans probably think that Ottawa doesn’t spend any money in their province (despite the existence of two major military bases) and other government offices.

Alberta loves its myth of being oppressed by Ottawa. It fits into the Christian persecution mythology. But this myth is not based on facts. It is the mistaken belief that western companies never get handouts. It is based on the mistaken belief that Ottawa does nothing for prairie farmers. It is based on an event that happened 20 years ago.

	18-06-2002 15:08									#292
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Asher I've requested Ming close down this thread because I feel the discussion has run its course several times over.

Just because you don’t want to talk about this topic doesn’t mean that others should be forced to stop. If you’re tired of having your lame theories cut to shreds then just stop posting. But there’s no reason for the rest of us to stop if we don’t feel like it.

Although, I must admit that I do enjoy demolishing your arguments.

	18-06-2002 15:18									#293
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Just because you don’t want to talk about this topic doesn’t mean that others should be forced to stop.

Feel free to start your own thread on it. I've been carrying this entire argument for my side, so it'll end once I stop anyway. And I can't ever stop myself from posting in my own threads so I'm going to ask Ming to close it.

Start your own thread if you wish to continue and you can debate with nye/Flubber/RedFred/etc and I won't join.

quote: If you’re tired of having your lame theories cut to shreds then just stop posting. But there’s no reason for the rest of us to stop if we don’t feel like it.

There's no reason for you to act so cocky either, you're giving yourself far too much credit.

Some of your posts have completely baffled me, and I can't understand how anyone can logically think that. Then again, I have troubles looking at the situation from a central Canadian/Liberal perspective.

You haven't changed my mind on this matter, nor anyone else's. You've been wrong quite a few times in here too, it's only human to err.

quote: Although, I must admit that I do enjoy demolishing your arguments.

Just so you know, you haven't demolished anything. I have been wrong in a couple of the points above but the jist of it still stands.

You keep dismissing it as a myth, which is pretty funny to me and most other Albertans, and I'm sure you enjoy doing that.

You may think it's a myth, but we've seen otherwise. We don't get the total shaft from Ottawa, they're still decent beings most of the time, it's just that we don't get the same priority as Ontario, simply because they've got more people. Right or wrong, that's how it is. And while it's like that some of us are tired of FEELING like second class citizens.

Myth or not there's alienation, and Ottawa hasn't actually done anything to prevent that, but has amplified it in recent years.

	18-06-2002 20:27									#294
	Get a bigger avatar today!

On the request of the starter of this thread...

Case Closed!