17-06-2002 09:24									#181
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Are you? If 90% of Canada thinks energy policy should be run a certain way and Alberta disagrees wih it, then you'll have to do some fast talking and interpret the idea of democracy pretty loosely if you think that this should be enough to stop it from going through.

That isn't so much a problem anymore, because the next time it happens Alberta is gone.

	17-06-2002 09:24									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Asher This is outrageous, a Senate wouldn't allow for that and you know it.

your living in a fantasy world. If the house has 80% liberals the senate would most likely have 80% liberals. And all those liberals would fall into party line and say what they are told, and vote the way they are told.

	17-06-2002 09:24									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That isn't so much a problem anymore, because the next time it happens Alberta is gone.

Sure, sweetie. I'll believe it when I see it.

	17-06-2002 09:24									#184
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quote: Originally posted by markusf your living in a fantasy world. If the house has 80% liberals the senate would most likely have 80% liberals. And all those liberals would fall into party line and say what they are told, and vote the way they are told.

How do you figure? The house would have more NDP + CA seats than Liberal...

You realize most of the Liberal votes come from only two provinces, right?

	17-06-2002 09:26									#185
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Sure, sweetie. I'll believe it when I see it.

You will indeed.

Most of Alberta is semi-content with Canada as a whole right now. But the polls in earlier threads clearly indicated a huge chunk of Alberta would like to secede unless major reforms are made in the government within 10 years. Remember that?

If there's another NEP, it will trigger an immediate secession. It's obvious.

	17-06-2002 09:31									#186
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quote: They demonstrate how the lack of a regional-based counterbalance can lead to the interests of the majority at the expense of a minority.

Why should regional minorities have more of a say than any other sort of minorities, such as political minorities?

	17-06-2002 09:31									#187
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sure

	17-06-2002 09:33									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How do you figure? The house would have more NDP + CA seats than Liberal... You realize most of the Liberal votes come from only two provinces, right?

Any senate would be based on representation by population. So what you have in the house is what your going to have in the senate.

	17-06-2002 09:35									#189
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Look Asher, if you're worried about the central government imposing laws on territories that don't want 'em, why not support a Constitutional amendment that guarantees, for instance, law nullification given some sort of majority consent in the province. A US-style Senate is not designed to accomplish what you want it to.

	17-06-2002 09:35									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why should regional minorities have more of a say than any other sort of minorities, such as political minorities?

Not just that: why should it only be provincial minorities?

I live in an English enclave of a French sea. There are discriminatory laws on the provincial books. Where's my special consideration?

	17-06-2002 09:36									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why should regional minorities have more of a say than any other sort of minorities, such as political minorities?

They only have more of a say in 1/3 of the branches, and in the branch that can only shoot down bills.

And in this case, Ramo, regional minorities tend to be political minorities. Look up Canadian election results, you'll see some distinct trends...

	17-06-2002 09:37									#192
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quote: Originally posted by markusf Any senate would be based on representation by population. So what you have in the house is what your going to have in the senate.

For **** sake, you're not even reading this thread!

US-style senate, moron.

	17-06-2002 09:37									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Look Asher, if you're worried about the central government imposing laws on territories that don't want 'em, why not support a Constitutional amendment that guarantees, for instance, law nullification given some sort of majority consent in the province. A US-style Senate is not designed to accomplish what you want it to.

Because it's impossible to pass such a thing in Canada's current setup?

Again, the Liberals have full and complete control in Canada. They would NOT like anything which means they can't have their way with all provinces.

	17-06-2002 09:37									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Most of Alberta is semi-content with Canada as a whole right now. But the polls in earlier threads clearly indicated a huge chunk of Alberta would like to secede unless major reforms are made in the government within 10 years. Remember that?

Exactly. "If you don't do what we say, we'll take our ball and go home". It's the same two-year old mentality that Quebec's had for the last 30 years, not an indication of serious intent.

I'll believe it when I see it.

	17-06-2002 09:37									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I said the Senate would give the Liberals a minority in the Senate, I've said nothing specifically about getting Alberta more power.

Asher: you really should learn a bit more about Canadian politics before you go on yet another of your rants.

A US-style system would not guarantee that the Liberals would be in a minority. Given the incompetence of the right wing and the voting habits of Canadians you would likely end up with senate election results as follows:

NFLD: Liberal (all of these indicate the party holding majority of seats)
N.S.: Liberal
N.B.: Liberal
PEI: Liberal
Quebec: probably 50-50 split lib and BQ
Ontario: Liberal
Manitoba: Split Liberal/NDP/CA
Sask: Split NDP/CA
Alberta: CA
BC: Split NDP/CA

So with five provinces going Liberal, there is a likelihood that power would still be held by one party. If a right-wing government is formed, it is highly likely that they would be blocked by a US-style senate.

quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't care for the reasoning behind WHY the majority exists.

Well then you're being completely stupid. If you don't know why the "problem" is being created then you won't be able to find a solution.

quote: Originally posted by Asher All I know, and have been talking about, is that the majority government has unlimited power in Canada. And that's outrageous.

There is nothign outrageous about democracy. It has its flaws, but it is better than the alternatives. If the government makes bad decisions then the voters are the ones to blame (although the voters always whine and say "it wasn't my fault.")

quote: Originally posted by Asher You can't blame unless you vote for parties only?

You want to try to explain your incomprehensible statement?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Strangely the US has more productive stuff going on than Canada.

You mean like massive farm subsidies that pay people not to work. Or how about the massive amounts of corporate welfare. Or how about the rigging of the electoral system.

The Canadian system is not perfect, but neither is the American system.

quote: Originally posted by Asher "Too much power" is relative. If you're in the majority, then it's too much. If you're in the minority, it's not enough. Strike a balance.

What you are proposing puts the minority in power.

If you want to change Canadian federal policies now, it is easy. Go out and convince the people that you are right.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Why should your opinion be forced on mine? Because you outnumber me?

That sounds a lot better than having a fringe minority forcing their opinion upon the vast majority.

	17-06-2002 09:41									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Asher For **** sake, you're not even reading this thread! US-style senate, moron.

Look moron, look at the democractic vs republican representation in the house and senate. If the elections where in the same year the distribution would be exactly the same. You think that just because someone is from alberta they will look after alberta interests, get real.

	17-06-2002 09:42									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Well then you're being completely stupid. If you don't know why the "problem" is being created then you won't be able to find a solution.

Tingkai, the problem is the MAJORITY GOVERNMENT HAS TOO MUCH POWER.

I don't care how I can elect a different majority government. Understand yet?








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I'm so tired of going in circles and now I'm being outnumbered by a bunch of socialists and libertarians.

Most of you still don't see a problem with having a tyrant majority, and that's fine, because I'm only going to be in this shithole of a country for 3 more years. You're the ones that are going to have to live in it for way more than that.

I hope you all feel the same way once the CA get in power and start slashing your medicare.

	17-06-2002 09:43									#198
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Too true too many other interest's once in there...

	17-06-2002 09:44									#199
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quote: I hope you all feel the same way once the CA get in power and start slashing your medicare

The Alliance. In power.

	17-06-2002 09:45									#200
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Where are the seats, Asher? The CA would have to win half of Ontario, or (snicker) parts of Quebec or the Maritimes.

	17-06-2002 09:47									#201
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quote: Most of you still don't see a problem with having a tyrant majority, and that's fine, because I'm only going to be in this shithole of a country for 3 more years. You're the ones that are going to have to live in it for way more than that.

Careful, sweetie. You've progressed beyond DFness and are now starting to sound like Giancarlo complaining about Argentina.

	17-06-2002 09:47									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Most of you still don't see a problem with having a tyrant majority, and that's fine, because I'm only going to be in this shithole of a country for 3 more years.

Then why do you bother starting these threads where all you do is insult people? Why should the Canadians on this list care about the opinion of someone whose childish approach is "I don't like the way you're playing, I'm leaving." You obviously hate Canada so why don't you leave now. Oh ya, I forgot. You want to leech off the education system before you split.

	17-06-2002 09:51									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Then why do you bother starting these threads where all you do is insult people? Why should the Canadians on this list care about the opinion of someone whose childish approach is "I don't like the way you're playing, I'm leaving."

It's more like "I've been arguing with the same people in circles for five hours now, and this is futile so I'm leaving". No one's changing their opinions so perhaps we should just deal with it.

Myself, I'm going out for a jog.

quote: You obviously hate Canada so why don't you leave now. Oh ya, I forgot. You want to leech off the education system before you split.

Because I don't have much of a choice in the matter. I don't quality for student loans, so I basically go where my dad is willing to pay. He's not willing to pay many times more for me to get a comparable education because I need to attend as an "out of state" student to some US university. Plus I've still got several thousand dollars in scholarships to cash in which are only valid in Alberta. So f*ck off.

	17-06-2002 09:52									#204
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Where are the seats, Asher? The CA would have to win half of Ontario, or (snicker) parts of Quebec or the Maritimes.

To many preachers etc in the party, if they get rid of those and get a decent leader they could win ontario.

	17-06-2002 09:52									#205
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The problem is the people have been neutered. We have the right to vote and get dictated to. That is called dictorial democracy. As I have tried to point out this encompasses all levels of governement in all provinces.

Check your act's, laws, bylaws and policies you will be made more aware of what is going on.

	17-06-2002 09:54									#206
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quote: Originally posted by markusf To many preachers etc in the party, if they get rid of those and get a decent leader they could win ontario.

They'd have to change a lot of economic policies too, placing themselves near where the old PC did. If they did that and shifted focus to being a national party, then they could win power. The Alliance of today needs more than just a facelift.

	17-06-2002 09:57									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Because I don't have much of a choice in the matter. I don't quality for student loans, so I basically go where my dad is willing to pay. He's not willing to pay many times more for me to get a comparable education because I need to attend as an "out of state" student to some US university. Plus I've still got several thousand dollars in scholarships to cash in which are only valid in Alberta. So f*ck off.

In other words, you're taking advantage of the cheap education system in Canada because Daddy won't pay for you to go anywhere else. Have you ever considered working your way through university?

And where did those scholarships come from? My bet is that it was either directly from Canadian taxpayers or indirectly from Canadian consumers.

The thing I hate are Canadians who don't realize how great they have it. Canada is a paradise compared to a lot of the world (and so is the US). Yet people get spoiled and whine.

	17-06-2002 10:00									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai In other words, you're taking advantage of the cheap education system in Canada because Daddy won't pay for you to go anywhere else. Have you ever considered working your way through university?

Christ Tingkai, just lay off.

I'm at a disadvantage because my home is in Canada. To go ANYWHERE in the US I don't get to use their state-subsidized colleges, I need to go as an out of state student, which costs a HELLUVA LOT MORE.

I would PREFER to go to school in the US, but this is where my home is so this is where I have to go to college to get a decent rate.

And I do have a job, Tingkai.

quote: And where did those scholarships come from? My bet is that it was either directly from Canadian taxpayers or indirectly from Canadian consumers.

Close, Alberta Heritage Scholarships, as well as CTS Scholarship (from Alberta), and a scholarship from my dad's company (redeemable for any Canadian postsecondary institution).

quote: The thing I hate are Canadians who don't realize how great they have it. Canada is a paradise compared to a lot of the world (and so is the US). Yet people get spoiled and whine.

The thing I hate are how Canadians are so complacent, because they don't know how much better they could have it.

Edit: Also, I've qualified for one of the new ICT (Informations and Communications Technology) scholarships from the Government of Alberta.

	17-06-2002 10:02									#209
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Same page different book mark...

	17-06-2002 10:03									#210
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They'd have to change a lot of economic policies too, placing themselves near where the old PC did. If they did that and shifted focus to being a national party, then they could win power. The Alliance of today needs more than just a facelift.

I haven't even looked. From what i can tell most of them are a protest vote to get a voice in the house. If western canada just voted liberal they would get 0 say as liberal back benchers. The only way western canada will ever get a voice is if we build up our high tech industry + manufactoring base.