18-06-2002 21:22									#61
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Native Americans (at least up here) are as well-armed as the average light infantryman, something that was quite clearly demonstrated during the Oka crisis 10 years ago. They're exempt on their own land (reservations) from many of the laws that non-Natives are bound by.

	18-06-2002 21:25									#62
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quote: Since you seem to be united in the view that these soliders are not representative of Israel or IDF, what are your views of Arafats culpability in terrorist attacks? Of course, Sharons history shows that he will never take responsibility of the actions of men under his command, but he is always eager to blame Arafat for actions carried out by Arafats political rivals...

You're comparing the isolated acts of individuals to those of organizations. It's like saying that the US should take responsibility for harboring the terrorists who killed Muslims (or people who looked like Muslims) after 9/11 or not complain about the Taliban and others who harbor terrorists.

	18-06-2002 21:27									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Solver I didn't know they have arms. Are the arms of native americans are comparison to the modern arms, or are those some old ww1 rifles?

They're US citizens. They can buy anything we can buy. When I was swimming at a beach on an Indian rez, a couple folks came by and started shooting their machine guns. We left.

	18-06-2002 21:33									#64
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Natan, you are not answering the question. If you think that we can't blame the state of Israel for the actions of some of its soldiers, how can you blame Arafat for the actions of some of his political rivals?

	19-06-2002 03:00									#65
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Bumpelibump.

Uncomfortable answering, Natan?

	19-06-2002 04:07									#66
	The full transcript of the program is here Suffering from ads?

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s584047.htm

	19-06-2002 04:17									#67
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I already answered - they're in no way analogous situations. Now if there was an organization of IDF soldiers severely abusing Palestinians as a policy, and Sharon had repeatedly endorsed their murders and robberies and made an official policy of not prosecuting them, you'd have a point. As it is, you might as well say that the UN is responsible for the abuses committed by its peacekeepers.

	19-06-2002 04:21									#68
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But you haven't answered, Natan.

Arafat has condemned the terrorist bombings. He has prosecuted some.

But because he doesn't have the political muscle to enfore the law in the entire PA, he is somehow more culpable than the IDF is regarding the actions of its soldiers?

Rank hypocrisy.

	19-06-2002 04:23									#69
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quote: Hamas has just said that Palestine cannot be liberated by suicide bombing. They did say, however, that Gaza and the West Bank could be

They changed their speak only in the last few months, since the USA blocked their funds.

quote: Are you suggesting that my provincial government has plans to violently annex Labrador if and when they achieve sovereignty?

If your map includes all labrador, it means you have cravings for it.

quote: I haven't heard news about terrorists killed while atepting to polute water supply.

That's because we managed to prevent those incidents.

as I published here a month and a half ago, Israel found neat big bottles of bromine (and cyanide iirc) in Arafat's offices.

	19-06-2002 04:24									#70
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This is the checkpoint outside the Palestinian town of Ramallah.

Jerusalem's only about 15 minute's drive away, but Palestinians usually wait here between one and three hours while Israeli soldiers search their cars and check their ID cards.

WOMAN 4 (TRANSLATION): We were standing on the other side from the checkpoint and I told him that my husband just get out of the hospital and he is doing this dialysis.

And he says, "Go back."

And I asked him again, that we need to get in.

And then, with the back of the gun, he took him and he beat him on his back.

And then he was thrown on the ground.

COLONEL MIRI EISEN: Have you ever seen a suicide belt?

When you put them on, all it looks is like it's an overweight person.

Sadly, there's no other way to check.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: The number of checkpoints varies.

Recently, there've been between 100 and 200 across the West Bank and Gaza.

Each one can become its own front line between Palestinians and soldiers.

This man is a serving commander in the Israeli army.

He's breaking the law by speaking to us.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): Everybody in the country serves in the Israeli army.

So you know what to expect and nothing is really new.

But when you are actually faced with it, it is shocking.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: According to the commander, some army units are known for excelling at harassment of Palestinians.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): First, there is one thing they do, which is to put the Palestinians in a group of three.

This is something that new soldiers that have joined the army like to do to the Palestinians.

They put them in a group of three and then give them tasks.

It's like playing games with them.

For example, they'd tell them to march as if it was an army march or tell them to shout.

They'd make them shout the name of their own army unit and make them sing songs in the same way they'd sing the songs of their unit.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Another trick -- taking keys or ID cards.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): Take it for ten or twelve hours, then let them wait and 'dry out' there.

Then sometimes they'll give back the documents and keys -- and sometimes they don't give them back.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Some Palestinians cry, some shout, some try to talk.

But in the end, most do what they're told.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): They're worried that if they don't carry out the army's orders, they'll get beaten up or the army will damage their cars or fire shots into the air.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Kaifa Al Ajrami lives in Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza.

Her son Taiseer used to work in a factory in Israel.

Every day, to get to work, he had to go through the army checkpoint out of Gaza.

KAIFA AL AJRAMI (TRANSLATION): They order them to take off their clothes, spit at your friend behind you and spit at your friend in front of you.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Last year, Taiseer strapped on a bomb belt and blew himself up at the checkpoint.

He injured two soldiers.

KAIFA AL AJRAMI (TRANSLATION): And that was the worst thing -- continuous humiliation.

As a result of that humiliation, my son has gone.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: But attacks like Taiseer's only bring reprisals.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): There is a feeling of revenge and you see everything in black and white.

Every Palestinian becomes the enemy.

Every Palestinian you see becomes the enemy.

Palestinians hurt Israelis and therefore you can hurt Palestinians.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Many soldiers feel vulnerable and frightened knowing they're targets for bombings and shootings.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): They are very worried.

They are afraid.

They are very tense.

And sometimes someone panics and breaks a road block or something like that -- and out of suspicion that it is a terrorist attack, they will shoot towards the car, even if it is an innocent person.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: The mistakes can be fatal.

Last month, the Israeli army admitted killing several innocent Palestinians, including women and children.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): Our society is seeing the best of its sons during army service humiliating Palestinians.

These people will later on become, become our doctors, engineers and lawyers.

It is very clear that nothing good can come of it.

	19-06-2002 04:27									#71
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Siro, you can't poison the water supply with Bromine and Cyanide. The bromine would reduce to Br- pretty fast, and would be too dilute to cause harm.

The cyanide would complex to iron ions in the water and fall out as a heavy salt.

	19-06-2002 04:38									#72
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu But you haven't answered, Natan. Arafat has condemned the terrorist bombings. He has prosecuted some.

Not quite. He has condemned them as damaging to the Palestinian cause at the present time (at other times he praises their executors) and he has put some of the terrorists into protective custody, which does nothing to limit their activities since they come and go freely.

quote: But because he doesn't have the political muscle to enfore the law in the entire PA, he is somehow more culpable than the IDF is regarding the actions of its soldiers? Rank hypocrisy.

Because he allows organizations which openly state that they perepetrate terrorist attacks to operate freely.


That the chemicals in question would be ineffective as poisons does not mean that no one would attempt to use them as such; Hamas has already made failed attempts to poison the shrapnel used in their bombs.

	19-06-2002 04:38									#73
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quote: Cute picture, Eli, but you seem to be ignoring that all of Palestine is their historical homeland.

I think that if the Israeli emblems included all of Historical Judea & Israel (including lebanon, syria and joran), you'd be right to say that our true ambitions are expansionist.

quote: Arafat has condemned the terrorist bombings. He has prosecuted some.

Well first of all, he has prosecuted none, except the zeevi murderors.

The terrorists were sitting in jail in administrative arrests.

And they were sitting in jails for very short periods. Infact, Arafat publically released all Hamas and Jihad terrorists he could in November 2000.

quote: But because he doesn't have the political muscle to enfore the law in the entire PA, he is somehow more culpable than the IDF is regarding the actions of its soldiers?

What are your sources that he does not have the political muscle?
Your sources are international news agencies which simply quote statements by Palestinian officials. International wire agencies don't do investigative journalism.

Israeli intelligence sources (whose legitimacy you fail to acknowledge, even though the rest of the world knows better [we saved king hussein's ass twice, we saved sadat's head once, we warned america about a major terract prior to 9/11]) tell a different story about the works of Arafat and his cabinet.

We just 'happen to have' the ability to pick up any phone conversation in the ME . And I know we had it even in the early 60s.

We just 'happen to have' agents in the PA and Hamas and Jihad.

Furthermore we've found evidence in the form of actual letters signed by Arafat approving money transfers to known terrorists (read: organizers of suicide bomber, and suicide bombers).

We have evidence given to us by barghoutti about the nature of Arafat's actions.

You on the other hand, have an active imagination for conspiracies.

	19-06-2002 04:45									#74
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Ah, siro, it's good to know that we can count on you pulling out the magical 'israeli intelligence sources' at every conrer.

Of course, the ultra-secret swedish intelligence services has told me in a private communicee that Israelis are all clones of Eva Braun, sent back in time to populate the earth, and that palestinians are jsut holograms created by the Eva clones to keep people away from the ME.

If we are going to have the debate at this level nothing will ever be said. Please stick to real sources.

	19-06-2002 04:49									#75
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Natan, you are lying now.

Read the news. He condemened the bombings without qualifier (in arabic) only a few weeks ago.

BTW, I have yet to see Sharon condemning the actions of his hired thugs, err, I mean valiant soldiers.


Likewise with the prosecution. Five men were sentenced to several years in jail for various crimes connected to terrorism. It might be that you are latching on to the one guy who were aquitted of the murder of the tourism minister, but put in protective custody to save him from Israeli murderers.

I know it is a strange concept with 'fair play' and 'justice', but in the rest of the world we have a court system where we examine these strange things called 'evidence'. If there is no 'evidence' that a person commited a crime, that person is innocent.

Was the trial perfectly fair? I don't know. But the fact theat five out of six WERE found guilty argues that it was.

	19-06-2002 05:00									#76
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In short, in the last three monthes he has made some gestures, after he was under tremendous personal pressure to do so so that he'd finally get a chance to take a shower. I might buy the story that he can't control all terrorism right now but seeing as he's been supporting terrorism since he took over the PA, I find it hard to believe that he wants to do so in the first place any more than he has to for show purposes. Hamas continues to hold seats in PA bodies and is treated as a legitimate political organization. Arafat's past endorsements of terrorism prove him to be the weasel and liar that he is. etc.

	19-06-2002 05:02									#77
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Weasel and liar? Not more than any other politician when he has to compromise with another party to retain power...

Is Sharon a weasel anda liar because he accepts a compromise from the labor party?

	19-06-2002 06:12									#78
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Weasel and liar? Not more than any other politician when he has to compromise with another party to retain power...

Then he shouldn't claim that he is cracking down on that party while it participates in his government.

	19-06-2002 06:24									#79
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Natan, are you trying to be dense or what?

Arafat does what he has to do to survive. With the continued occupation of palestine and the gradual realization that Israel never intended to keep its word, support for Arafat decreased and wnt to Hamas et al. instead.

If he had cracked down violently he would have lost power altogether. Instead is he cracking down as much as he can. Continued violence is not in his best interest, he is quite sincere when he condemns the attacks as being detrimental to the palestinian cause.

The last year he has been doing a blancing act, convincing people that he is behind resistance but cracking down on individuals breaking his edicts.

Weasel and liar? Hardly. Pragmatic survivalist? For sure.

and hell, I'd take a pragmatic survivalist over a paranoid war criminal any day...

	19-06-2002 06:38									#80
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Thanks for not mentioning Canada's ****-ups in Somalia (though those involved weren't peacekeepers, but were backup for the American hunt for that warlord whose name escapes me).

You mean the Canadian Airborne Brigade, with the bayonet incidents and barbecuing that kid?

And the ******* was Mohammad Farah Aidid.

	19-06-2002 06:59									#81
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Cyber: If Arafat provided social welfare services to the Palestinian people instead of ceeding that function to Hamas, he might not find his popularity falling so much relative to that of Hamas.

	19-06-2002 07:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Natan, are you trying to be dense or what? Arafat does what he has to do to survive. With the continued occupation of palestine and the gradual realization that Israel never intended to keep its word, support for Arafat decreased and wnt to Hamas et al. instead.

So then he should have cracked down before - but he didn't. The elections in which Hamas was allowed to participate were long before the present hostilities. And the idea that he has to send condolence letters to the families of suicide bombers to survive is completely absurd.

quote: If he had cracked down violently he would have lost power altogether. Instead is he cracking down as much as he can. Continued violence is not in his best interest, he is quite sincere when he condemns the attacks as being detrimental to the palestinian cause. The last year he has been doing a blancing act, convincing people that he is behind resistance but cracking down on individuals breaking his edicts.

So in short, he is lying - he opposes violences and wants to end it but claims that he is "behind resistance." And this is your view, not mine. In your view, he feels one thing, says another, and does both/neither.

	19-06-2002 07:05									#83
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quote: Siro, you can't poison the water supply with Bromine and Cyanide. The bromine would reduce to Br- pretty fast, and would be too dilute to cause harm. The cyanide would complex to iron ions in the water and fall out as a heavy salt.

Bromine is lethal to inhale though iirc. But it also could increase the explosive potencial of bombs from what I read.

I never meant they intended to put it in the water supplies.

Cyber - nothing is ultra secret and magical.

There are real people working to gather intelligence sources.

If you are talking about the war in afghanistan, you can't ingore CIA and FBI reports.

And if you accept them, you should accept Israeli reports. It's illogical that just because CNN carries CIA and FBI reports, they have any more weight than GSS, Mossad or MI (Mil. Intel.) in Israel.

Cyber - you better improve your arabic or hire someone to read their news for you.

In arabic, they aren't condemning the bombings, but rather say "The bombing is a mistake at this stage, it only hurts us".

In arabic, they do not say "It's immoral to hurt civilians".

quote: Five men were sentenced to several years in jail for various crimes connected to terrorism

You of course mean the circus trial that was held in Arafat's compound in ramallah.

It wasn't a real trial. The judges and wittnesses all were people who were locked up in ramallah. generals or whom ever.

You know it and I know it, and it was reported exactly the same way on CNN and BBC.


This was even less real than the trials done to 'cooperators with israel'.

	19-06-2002 07:11									#84
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quote: Was the trial perfectly fair? I don't know.

Gee, a little ignorant aren't we?

If one of the convicted was alter acquited by the supreme court, after what they had said "a complete lack of any evidence against him", how could his trial have been fair?

they were puppet trialed at Arafat's whim, since he wanted to please america and Israel.

And now, they were ackuited, but are still held in custody, even though the court ordered their release. Why? Because Arafat hasn't ordered to do so.

Technically, since he passed the "Basic Law" , he doesn't have to sign it anymore, it must be done anyway - but in reality it has no status.

About "Basic Law" - he passed it quickly a month ago.

Do you imagine that before that, he could single handedly veto supreme court decisions by deciding not to sign them?

	19-06-2002 07:15									#85
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Basically, you're an ignorant bigot and you know it.

You form your opinion about what's hapenning according to your own prejudices and shorts and short bits you see on CNN and BBC and read about in The Economist.

And then you ignore the fact that your opinion, based mostly on private opinions of journalists who simply requote official representatives, does not infact, show what occurs on the field.

But it's ok.

If you want to live in the shallow world BBC builds for you by interviewing officials, it's ok. Obviously nothing ever happens except things which are picked up by BBC.

	19-06-2002 07:50									#86
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Let me take a shot at this, although I may regret it.

Israel has a large modern army almost fully funded by the USA.
The Palestinians have no army.

The Israeli's use their army vigorously against military and non-military targets. They inflict civilian and military casualties. They also use their army to assassinate prominent Palestinian leaders and cause massive civilian casualties. There is little to no media outcry against these atrocities.

The Palestinians, have a right to defend themselves, but they can't field an army that even comes close to the US funded Israeli army, so they use suicide bombers. These suicide bombers are used against military and non-military targets. They inflict civilian and military casualties. Everyone decries these atrocities.

It appears to me that each side is doing the same violence to each other's population, except that the Israeli's are far more effective and the casualties inflicted are much higher since they are using a modern army. So why is it that when the Palestinians inflict civilian casualties, they are considered terrorists and that when the Israeli's inflict civilian casualties, they are considered reprisals or military maneuvers?

Israel is on a campaign of genocide against the Palestinians. The Palestinians do have a right to defend themselves with any means at their disposal.

I think a UN recognized Palestinian state would go a long way towards solving many of the issues that are lingering in the region. My concerns with this is that the Palestinians may not be satisfied only with the lands delegated to them and they may, most likely probably, try to expand their lands. This concern is also put forth by Israeli sympathizers, but they use this as an excuse to justify further military action against the Palestinians. This concern, although valid, cannot stand in the way of recognizing Palestinian statehood. The Palestinians have as much right to a homeland as do the Israelis.

That's all I want to say for now.

The following quote is from the CIA's online factbook about the West Bank. Italics are mine.
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publication...ok/geos/we.html
An intifadah broke out in September 2000; the resulting widespread violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel's military response, and instability in the Palestinian Authority are undermining progress toward a permanent settlement.

	19-06-2002 08:08									#87
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I just read this in the July 1, 2002 issue of The Nation. I thought the readers and posters of this thread might be interested.

ISRAEL AND THE ICC

Isarael's Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein has rased fears that Israelis might be charged and indicted by the International Criminal Court after it convenes July 1. He warned a Knesset committee that the court could charge Israel Defense Forces soldiers with human rights violations in Jenin or other cities during Operation Defensive Shield. It could also indict Jewish settlers on the grounds that the settlements are illegal. Rubinstein said IDF soldiers suspected of looting or other miscounduct have been charged by military courts and are thus exempt from ICC proceedings, but he was worried about the court indicting settlers.

	19-06-2002 08:16									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley I just read this in the July 1, 2002 issue of The Nation. I thought the readers and posters of this thread might be interested. ISRAEL AND THE ICC

quote: MYTH: The International Criminal Court could prosecute Israeli leaders for current violence in the Occupied Territories. REALITY: First, the Court only has jurisdiction over events that occur after its entry into force, and would not be able to take up any events that occur before its creation. Moreover, it is nearly inconceivable that Israeli leaders could be tried before the ICC in any case. If the violence in the Occupied Territories were to continue, the chances that the case could come before the ICC are still incredibly slim. The ICC only has jurisdiction if a covered crime is committed by a national of a member state (one that has ratified the Rome Statute), if a crime has been committed on the territory of a member state, or if a specific case is referred by the Security Council. To qualify for the first category, Israel or an internationally-recognized Palestinian state would have to ratify the Rome Statute. Given the current violence in the area and lack of support for an independent Palestinian state, neither of these is likely to happen anytime soon. The other possible road to the Court, a Security Council referral, is equally unlikely with the United States holding a veto power.

http://www.endgenocide.org/ceg-icc/myths.html

	19-06-2002 10:22									#89
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How many kids died today?

	19-06-2002 13:17									#90
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Dino, AFAIK, the palestinians aren't complaining about a lack of hospitals, they complaining about a lack of access to the hospitals. The lack of access is in turn caused by the roadblocks...