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Space05us
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ever since I've become more interested in the goings on over there I've been becoming less and less sympathetic to the Isaraelis. reading this makes me understand why some of the people kill other people, but I'll never be sympathetic to the Palestinians as they have already killed too many innocent people out of hate. Im sure the Israelis kill innocent people too, thats one of the reasons Im less sympathetic towards them than I was before.
It's one big mess over there...
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:20
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quote:
One mother of a suicide bomber said that the daily humiliation by Israeli soldiers was what pushed her son over the edge. He couldn't take it any more and blew himself up at the army check point where he had faced daily abuse like the above. |
Of course she also failed to mentioned:
- The encitement in school books against Jews and the western world in General.
- The programming in school books that martyrdom is holy and is the best solution
- The programming in TV shows which glorify martyrdom
- The encitement on TV
- The fact that the PA does not prevent Hamas and Jihad and Fatah from reaching to people's children and sending them to explode
- The fact that the PA seeks out and helps Hamas Jihad and Fatah to reach the children so they could blow up.
quote:
The numbers aren't even close. In terms of killing innocents, the Palestinians are ametuers compared to the Israelis |
Sure.
When they include all the terrorists in the number of dead, even those that exploded killing innocent Israelis, the numbers grow quite fast.
Another reason is that warfare in civilian territory isn't easy.
I think US and UN know that from a little country in Africa, recently mentioned in a film, don't they.
Furthermore, such abuses happen, and they happen daily.
You'd be surprised but -  It's a war. And when there is war there are soldiers. And when there are soldiers - there are always shitheads who like to abuse people.
It doesn't mean that all the soldiers are such, or that this is something which is systematic or regulated from above. It's enough that 10% will be bastard, and they'd have wide enough spread and power.
In any case, there are court marshalls.
For instance, I know that some 100 are in trial procedures over charges of looting and malicious actions in the April incursions. Several dozens are already serving time in prisons.
And all of you people who go "no wonder they explode at street corners" I want to remind of the black liberty movement in America.
Never have they employed terror againt innocent civilians. And they were treated much worse than the Palestinians, since the Palestinians are treated bad since they are seen as a threat. Blacks weren't seen as human at all.
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markusf
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Basically terrorists fighting terrorists. No matter what side you ask its the other sides fault, they won't stop until one side wipes out the other.
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Space05us
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quote:
[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Sirotnikov
And all of you people who go "no wonder they explode at street corners" I want to remind of the black liberty movement in America.
Never have they employed terror againt innocent civilians. And they were treated much worse than the Palestinians, since the Palestinians are treated bad since they are seen as a threat. Blacks weren't seen as human at all. |
Most people did see them as humans, it was only an ignorant and scared group of people that didn't.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:20
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I think that most people think that war is as sterile as in the movies, and that everyone is mel gibson.
Sorry to break it to you, but jerks and racists exist in Israel as well.
And while the IDF does try to stop it and punish it, due to the special forceful position the soldiers have over the population, some abuse it.
It is however not at all a methodology.
Israel doesn't actually build new settlements but rather expands old ones.
There are private people who bring their trailer homes on a hill or something... but it's not considered a settlement and is not legal.
The new settlement houses are offered at low prices, true. I'm not sure about the figure, but it's true. The price is low because those who live there live in constant threat, and my very possibly be uprooted in a future agreement.
As for pals applying -
a) they usually build their own houses on adjustant hills.
b) they are palestinians rather than israeli citizens. you'd have a case for racism (which you are aching to get) if , say, an israeli arab was applying for it, and wouldn't be accepted.
but that won't happen.
a) israeli arabs, while supportive of palestinians, do not like them. they see them as extreme, crazy and barbaric. the palestinian society is decades behind the israeli arab society, both society and politics wise.
b) in a future agreement, the israeli arabs living there may very well find themselves palestinian citizens, which they don't want. they enjoy the better job opportunities in israel, and the much less corrupt, though biased towards large cities, israeli system.
c) they might move in, but they sure might not feel welcome if their neighbours are extremist jews.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:20
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quote:
Most people did see them as humans, it was only an ignorant and scared group of people that didn't. |
depends when.
Only in the 19th century were they began to be seen as humans, though not citizens, and only in the latter half, did they become citizens.
In any case, it's not as if they lived in prosperity and love.
The Palestinains here, many worked in Israel and many Israelis began coming to the territories for products or services, which were cheaper.
There aren't any 'no palestinians allowed' restaurants, though such attitudes may exist in certain places, among extreme right wingers.
But then again, I'm sure there are still places in america where a black, or hispanic or jewish person will be treated 'unpleasantly'.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:20
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quote:
I see your point, both sides might be victims in this, but isn't it just one more reason why we should all work to end the occupation?
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Yes. And the first step towards doing that is to end the basic reason for the occupation - Palestinian terrorism.
quote:
So, siro, you are accepting partial responsibility for the suicide bombers now? Well, at least a step forward. Now if we can get it past the propaganda wall in your head that it doesn''t matter how much Hamas glorifies the death of a martyr, without this humiliation and lack of hope there only a very very few weakminded weirdos would fall for it... |
Lack of education is another problem, AFAIK. If the only thing you've ever been taught or seen on the news etc. is that 'Israelis are subhuman and aggressors and it is holy to blow yourself up to kill them', then that is most likely what you will believe, at least until you see something that contradicts that and think for yourself. If you don't get that chance, then you will almost certainly believe that.
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:20
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I was torn whether to post this here or in a separate thread.
Here will do.
quote:
Young Palestinians wild for `martyr' necklaces
Pokémon cards passé as traders covet militant memorabilia
By Sandro Contenta
MIDDLE EAST BUREAU
BALATA REFUGEE CAMP, West Bank — Fourteen-year-old Saleh Attiti has replaced his once-precious Pokémon cards with a less innocent craze that has swept up children in this violence-torn camp.
On a plastic coffee table in his cinder-block home, Saleh proudly displays part of his growing collection of necklaces with pictures of "martyrs" of the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation.
"I used to have plenty of Pokémons — my school bag was half full of them," Saleh said. "I threw them all away. They're not important now. The pictures of martyrs are important. They're our idols."
It's difficult to find a child in this teeming camp of 20,000 people who isn't wearing at least one necklace with a picture of a shahid, or "martyr" — mostly militant gunmen killed or suicide bombers blown up during the 20-month-old uprising.
The children use them the way they once used cards of Pokémon or sports heroes. They spend their meagre allowances to collect and trade them, constantly hunting for prized shahid pictures that excite like a vintage baseball card.
For Palestinian teachers, the craze in "martyr" necklaces is the latest example of children poised to become the next generation of fighters against Israeli occupation. Growing up in a culture of violence fuelled by both sides in the conflict, Palestinian children are adopting the uprising's militia fighters as role models.
"These children are convinced that martyrdom is a holy thing, something worthy of the ultimate respect," said Munir Jabal, head of a Balata teachers association. "They worship these pictures. I think it will lead them in the future to go out and do the same thing."
In Balata, a stronghold of the Fatah-linked Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades militia, the most highly sought after necklaces have pictures of Mahmoud Attiti, Raed Karmi, and Yasser Badawi, militia leaders assassinated by the Israeli army during the conflict.
The most recent hot item is a pendant of Jihad Attiti, the 18-year-old who became the camp's first suicide bomber two weeks ago by blowing himself up and killing two Israelis — an 18-month-old baby and her grandmother — in a Tel Aviv suburb.
"It works like this," says 12-year-old Assam Kandil, who boasts of having 30 necklaces. "If I have an extra one of Mahmoud Attiti, I will trade one for Yasser Badawi."
Added Saleh, a nephew of bomber Attiti: "We love them and we want to be like them."
The trend first appeared last November. A shopkeeper in the adjacent city of Nablus, Assam Kanaza, was producing plaques of civilians and militants killed in the fighting when a family asked him to produce a plastic medallion of their son.
Kanaza, 29, said the work was noticed by other families who lost loved ones, and new orders came in until the medallions snowballed into a popular phenomenon. Kanaza said he's produced more than 5,000 of them, and another 6,000 plaques and key chains — all with the pictures of "martyrs."
The medallions are shipped to other parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, but the phenomenon is most evident in Balata and Nablus.
Kanaza's plastic medallions are the top end of the necklace craze and sell for 10 shekels a piece, about $3.30.
"Sometimes a child will say, `Don't you think that's too much,'" said Kanaza. "I say, `If you bring me half that much I will give it to you.' He comes back in a week with five shekels and he's very, very happy."
With Palestinian civilians or fighters killed on almost a daily basis, Kanaza's business is booming. Other merchants have jumped on the craze with a cheaper alternative to Kanaza's medallions. They mass-produce passport-size photos of the militants and slip them into transparent pendants. Those sell for just 65 cents.
At Balata, the craze is a by-product of a community that has seen some of the worst fighting in the uprising.
Since last February, the camp has been completely invaded three times by Israeli soldiers in search of militants and bomb-making workshops.
At the camps' school for boys, run by the United Nations' agency responsible for Palestinian refugees, bullet holes riddle the inside of some classrooms and parts of its façade.
The 1,700 students have missed half the school year because of Israeli-imposed curfews or invasions. Many of the students know a relative or friend killed in the uprising. Two of its students have been killed and six have brothers who died in the fighting.
It's the kind of environment that has forced teachers to grudgingly allow students to wear their "martyrs" necklaces in class. When a teacher recently insisted a student remove his necklace during gym class, the boy's father showed up the next day and "wanted to fight us," said the school's principal.
The principal, who asked not to be named, said teachers were forced into a similar compromise about posters commemorating fighters and suicide bombers, which used to fill classroom walls. The students agreed to take them down in exchange for posting them on classroom bulletin boards.
"We tried to convince the students that there's just not enough places to put up all the martyrs posters because it's a continuous phenomenon," he said. "The Israeli occupation thinks it can break this new generation by showing its power. They don't understand that the opposite is happening. They're breeding hatred."
Jabal said the children have lost all fear of Israeli soldiers and already go through dangerous lengths to imitate their militant models.
Recently, Jabal's 15 year-old son was shot in the leg by soldiers after setting fire to an unoccupied tank.
"I opened my son's closet and found it full of martyrs posters and necklaces. I said to him there's nothing wrong with being nationalistic and defending your rights, but you're just too young," Jabal said. "I said, `Ultimately, you'll be rewarded with your picture hanging from a necklace, and we will have lost a son.'"
Additional articles by Sandro Contenta
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Link:
http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/c...epath=News/News
Thanks to Drudge for the link.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:20
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Israelis are not being convinced that Palestinians are crazy and evil via brainwashing, moron. Generally, Israelis are extremely suspicious of Palestinians, but don't hate them or don't think they're evil and crazy. And you can guess why they're extremely suspicious of them.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I saw a program last night about the situation in the West Bank.
One of the interesting aspects of the program was the evidence of the humiliation of Palestinian civilians by Israeli army soldiers.
The program interviewed several Israeli army reservists, some named with face to camera, and they talked about the ways their units harrass Palestinian civilians trying to go about their daily lives. They said some Israeli army units were notorious for thinking up new ways to abuse Palestinians every day.
Most of the harrassment happens at Israeli army checkpoints. Some of the things they do:
. When they are searching a car, they take the keys away and either throw them away or refuse to give them back, sometimes for hours at a time or not at all.
. They take ID cards and make the Palestinian wait at the checkpoint. Sometimes they don't give the papers back at all, which means the Pal might lose their job in Israel.
. They pick out young Palestinian men, the favorite is to pick out 3 for some reason, and make them do humiliating things like kick each other in the arse, spit on each other or sing Israeli army songs for the amusement of Israeli troops.
One mother of a suicide bomber said that the daily humiliation by Israeli soldiers was what pushed her son over the edge. He couldn't take it any more and blew himself up at the army check point where he had faced daily abuse like the above.
Imagine if you had to put up with that sh*t or watch your mother or father humiliated like that every day. |
Exactly.
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Bereta_Eder
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this sort of treatment just adds fuel to the fire.
and yes Hamas and all others are all too happy to see this humiliation continue, it gives them more boys and girls for the "cause".
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18-06-2002 08:10
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